Captain America: The Winter Soldier pre-release thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by JD, Jul 15, 2012.

  1. DEWLine

    DEWLine Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2003
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Since you raised the subject of Nick Fury Senior...his upbringing and political life before going to Europe might be some interesting reading in itself.
     
  2. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Thanks Dad USAF 1947-1972
    My Cap was the one from the 70s as written by Steve Englehart. So seeing Cap as a social progressive, New Deal Democrat isn't hard for me. But I have to mention a lot of what's mentioned in that article are retcons. Living Brooklyn, being the child of of Irish immigrants, being an artist and being poor are later additions to Cap's history and not part of what was established in the 40s.
     
  3. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    I don't actually think the 40s version of the character is all the relevant. The character that we're talking about is the movie version, which is more or less based on the retconned version that involves him being frozen in time. I don't think it's fair to judge him based on the character that was created during WWII.
     
  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Certainly not. Even in the '30s and '40s, there were white Americans who despised racism and treated people of other races with respect. Jack Benny, for instance. Most radio shows of that era portrayed black characters as demeaning caricatures, slow and lazy and cowardly, but Benny never let his writers make such jokes at the expense of the character of Rochester; indeed, while Rochester was a manservant, he was smart and canny and was routinely given the punch lines at Benny's expense. And in real life, Benny was outraged when Eddie Anderson, who played Rochester, was mistreated or denied service because of his race. I think I read that once while the cast was traveling in the south, Benny refused to stay at a hotel that wouldn't let Anderson stay as well.

    So even then, there were people who knew better.


    Technically, perhaps, but think about it. A poor, New York-born artist who's the child of immigrants belonging to a minority that was persecuted at the time? That perfectly describes Captain America's creators Joe Simon and Jack Kirby, as well as Stan Lee himself. The only difference is that they were Jewish rather than Irish. So while those aspects of Steve's backstory may have been added later, they accurately represented the background of his creators. And these were not people who would've created an American icon defined by elitism and exclusionism.
     
  5. DEWLine

    DEWLine Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2003
    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    Someone like Coulson, who sees a positive value in things past, would know this sort of detail about the likes of Jack Benny.
     
  6. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    What was really established about Steve Rogers' family and background back in the 40s?
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Probably nothing at all. Comics at the time weren't all that deep.

    In Captain America #1, we don't even meet Steve until he's introduced as the volunteer for the supersoldier experiment -- and he isn't even named on that page, because the reveal that Private Steve Rogers is Captain America is the surprise on the last page of the story. So Steve's past was a complete non-issue in his debut story, and I doubt that changed any over the rest of the '40s and '50s.
     
  8. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Location:
    UK
    I wasn't commenting on Cap's politics; obviously he's neither racist nor a misogynist. Indeed he probably think the latter has something to do with melted cheese. ;)

    I was just pointing out that the "old fashioned ideas" that people always harp on about (on this side of the pond too) are often looked at through some very blurry rose tinted glasses. Like I said: a whole other discussion.

    I don't know, I'd be interested to find out what (if any) back story the original version of the character had. That later authors went out of their way to paint him in as liberal a light as possible rather smack of revisionism and some of that misguided nostalgia I mention above.

    Part of me would rather he wasn't so morally "perfect" by modern standards. After all we can't help the times we're born into and a good person can still have some (from our perspective) very backward views.

    I'm not saying any person in those or earlier times must by definition hold "views" that we would find disagreeable by any means. I'm just curious how (if at all) different the original Cap's sense of morality is from the version we have today.

    Ah ah, so he's in favour of corporal punishment then? I knew he wasn't squeaky clean! :p
    Also, is Bucky suppose to be a child soldier in this? I mean the outfit is creepy enough, but he actually takes him into a warzone?

    Yes, yes, I know. Comic strip. Wartime propaganda aimed at children and borderline illiterate draftees and all that...but still...
     
  9. The Old Mixer

    The Old Mixer Auld Lang Mod Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Location:
    Bedford Falls
    In the comics, Bucky was the camp mascot...and I think the camp was based in the U.S. (we weren't at war yet).
     
  10. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 19, 2001
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Sometime during Roger Stern's run we learn that Cap's memories were altered so much of his history was invalid. And he was replaced by somebody else in the 50s. Still Steve Rogers' moralistic center remained just his past was changed over the years.
     
  11. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2004
    Location:
    Mannheim, Germany
    Later versions show Bucky fighting alongside Rogers in WW2 while he still is a teenager (late teens of course) and being quite proficient in killing.

    Modern Cap America comics often alluded to Bucky's actions as the one necessary which Cap couldn't do like stabbing a guard in the back to enter an area.
     
  12. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 19, 2001
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    Yeah it was so much better to show a minor doing the killing than Cap. ;)
     
  13. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2008
    No that's not quite right, Stern's run reverted to the status quo after someone else (Gerber) tried to change the origin.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Right. Despite the famous "punching Hitler" cover of his debut issue, the '40s Cap wasn't fighting the Nazis in Europe, he was fighting fifth columnists, saboteurs, and Nazi sympathizers in the US. It was upon his revival in the '60s that he was retconned as having participated actively in the war in Europe as a member of the superhero team called the Invaders, and occasionally in partnership with Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos.

    But that debut cover shows that Cap was never a mere enforcer of the status quo. At the time, in 1940, a lot of Americans opposed the idea of going to war and a lot were sympathetic to the Nazi government or doing business with them. Prior to December 1941, blatantly endorsing enmity toward the Nazis was a controversial stance and a strongly political statement.
     
  15. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 19, 2001
    Location:
    Columbus, Ohio
    My fault then, I remembered the panel in #247 and thought the memory altering was done during Stern's run. :alienblush:
     
  16. Yminale

    Yminale Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Location:
    Democratically Liberated America
    Criticism from a man whose country still has Lords and Ladies and swears allegiance to a Queen.

    Plus you don't seem to understand the whole purpose of ideals. They exist not to cover up flaws but to transcend them (and judging by the racial violence in Europe we are doing a pretty good job).

    Just because Captain America lived with racists doesn't mean he was one himself.
     
  17. Reverend

    Reverend Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Location:
    UK
    OK, *when* exactly did I swear allegiance to the Queen? And when exactly did this discussion become personal? Calm down sunshine.
     
  18. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2004
    Location:
    Ulster
    Citizens of the UK are not required to swear allegiance to anyone.

    Lords are elected government representatives.

    "Ladies" refering simply to their spouses, who often have other roles in government/civil service.

    All of the "old fashioned" aspects of the jobs themselves have been replaced apart from a few aesthetic keepsakes, a tiny piece of what the House of Lords actually is today.

    These people are the final stage of passing laws that have overturned the likes of gender and racial inequality.

    But do please keep being ignorant, it's amusing.
     
  19. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Location:
    Ireland
    I like Cap's Roosevelt-ian New Deal era politics and I like to explain to people who associate Captain America with 'jingoist' policies that he's a much more subtle and liberal character than the name suggests. But I thought Reverend made a fair point, that we shouldn't overlook the problems that prevailed at the time that the character is supposed to have grown up in.

    I don't think anyone should take it as an insult; merely a reminder that nostalgia ain't what it use to be! Seriously though, don't forget that Roosevelt (whose presidency I have a lot of respect for) opened detention camps for Japanese-Americans during WWII, long before any War on Terror thought of similar ideas.
     
  20. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Location:
    Bristol, United Kingdom
    Watch 'Benefits Street' for a real slice of British life. :p

    I personally have toasted the Queen on many occasions, however.

    And 'Ladies' are not just the spouses of Lords. Many Baronesses are titled on their own merit, don't forget. Go Floella Benjamin, I say!