Captain America... Spoilers

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Hermiod, Jun 15, 2009.

  1. Nick Ryder

    Nick Ryder Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Since when does Bags no longer work for Marvel? He was one of my favorite artists!

    Well Brubaker's done a good job so far. Picked up my copy of Captain America 600 today, kinda liked the many stories idea, reminded me somewhat of some of the Superman comics that came out around the time of his "death". And it just makes me hate Osborn even more!

    Fuck you Joe Queseda for giving us OSBORN as head of HAMMER... oh that sounds all warm and fuzzy. Queseda is Satan in a t-shirt! Anyone who likes that dipshit is a moron who deserves what they get!
     
  2. the Dagman

    the Dagman Commodore Commodore

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    He went exclusive to DC about a year and a half ago after he finished his run on Ultimate Spider-Man. He spent the last year doing the art on the weekly series Trinity, and every issue shipped on time! He will be doing a four issue arc on Batman and will then be taking over as permanent artist on Justice League of America. Although, his exclusivity period may be over now. As he is reportedly contributing artwork to the upcoming Ultimate Spider-Man: Requiem two issue special before Marvel relaunches their line under the Ultimate Comics banner.
     
  3. Prometheus

    Prometheus Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    can't wait to see "Cap" back...
     
  4. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What i always wondered is why do "modern" writers seem incapable of creating new, equally popular characters?

    Spiderman, Cap America, Iron Man, Hulk, Thor etc.. all created in the Stan Lee era.

    I don't think we have heroes created in our time (90s and 00s) that equal their popularity and pop culture importance.

    Why is that? Are we not giving them a proper chance to become as established? Are they not iconic enough? Or are they just not that interesting to begin with..

    I know the reason why the big ones like Marvel and DC can't kill off main characters for good.. it's because they are the cash cows of the companies. Look at how much derision DC got when they tried to update Superman (i liked his new costume.. didn't much care for the new set of powers) until they quickly changed back (possibly retconning their statements as in "It was always planned like this.. just a short stint"). However if we'd have "equal" heroes i believe you could kill off some main heroes for good and continue to earn money with your own creations.

    Just look at the mainstream impact Cap's death had and the unmasking of Peter Parker.. it was on major news networks for friggin' sake!
     
  5. Hermiod

    Hermiod Admiral Admiral

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    I'd argue that Wolverine is probably more popular than Thor or Cap and wasn't created until long after them.

    However, the comic book reading audience is a lot smaller these days. The kind of characters that become as iconic as Spider-Man and co are being created for other audiences - TV, film, video games etc.
     
  6. Nick Ryder

    Nick Ryder Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Course even with Wolverine his popularity came out of the X-Men which was a Stan Lee creation. I mean Lee didn't create Cap, but he was brought back into the mainstream by him. Even Venom, Punisher and some of the other 'popular' characters were created as spin offs from Stan Lee created characters.

    There's a reason why Stan's "The Man". I do agree that it seems like some of characters created after the 60s-70s just haven't had the same "beloved-ness" of the older characters. Sure there are a few favorites, but they aren't to the level of the biggies.
     
  7. Hermiod

    Hermiod Admiral Admiral

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    ^That said, Stan Lee didn't create Cap.
     
  8. Nick Ryder

    Nick Ryder Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Marvel's kind of interestin' in that way... other than Cap and Bucky, few pre-60s characters were so beloved and iconic that if Marvel even THOUGHT about doing anything to them, killing them, changing their costumes, changing their alliances, its BIG NEWS. But look at some of the early and "first" Marvel characters, Human Torch, Namor, the rest of the "Invaders", the other WW2 characters, sure some of them are STILL around and active, buuuuut no one cares that much about them. Maaaybe Namor, but still few outside of Marvel-dom really know of him. He wasn't in the more modern cartoons (that I recall) in such a way that he was instantly iconic and 'sorta known'. So really its a testament to the character that he's endured as long as he has. And I STILL attribute his lasting charm to Stan Lee. He was a wartime hero, he was a 'commie smasher', but I doubt he would have endured as long as he has if he wasn't an Avenger. If he wasn't one of Marvel's "big heroes". And that's Stan Lee's doing.

    Wolverine - yes, he was ceated by Len Wein and David Cockrum buuut his REAL popularity didn't come until he was firmly firmly entrenched in the X-Men, which was yep... a Stan Lee creation.

    Although I won't deny that certain creators were REALLY what made some of these characters popular. The X-Men were all but canned until Giant Sized X-Men. Spider-Man well... he had a lot of good writers and some not so good ones over the years, but he's still Stan's baby. But guys like Bagely, Romita, McFarlane REALLY put him over the top in terms of iconic status. Think about some of the promo pieces they use for Spidey, those are going on 20-30 years old. Nicieza, Busiek, and so many other writers have kept him 'fresh' over the years. Iron Man is kind of the odd one of the bunch, he's so iconic, yet no one artist or writer over his long history is his "iconic" writer/artist. Sure Layton, Romita, Chen and now Granov have left their indelible mark on the character, but I guess the funny thing is, when they want to show Iron Man, they show either his second Kirby designed armor OR the 90s era Modular armor which the cartoon was based on. Hulk... well Peter David left his mark on the Not so jolly green giant. But I think in the general public's mind, the iconic honor belongs to Bill Bixby.

    Cap's a special character because he works so interchangably with the ENTIRE Marvel Universe. You can see him just about every 'universe' and he works. Although I'm still not entirely sure that the whole "Every non-natural born super powered being was because they were part of things that were spun out of the Super Soldier program" hell they even shoehorned Weapon X into the Captain America legacy.

    BUT that just goes to show that Captain America is THE icon of Marvel and really that's impressive. Out of ALL the heroes in the Marvel stable, Cap is like the 'god of liberty'.
     
  9. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    The biggest reason would be that Marvel and DC have both got very full universes already; the groundwork for Marvel's was primarily laid in the 1960s, and, while important characters have been added since, in general, the most important character types and roles have been taken.

    Also, the audiences, whether longtime fans or kids who grew up on the cartoons (which only focus on a few major franchises, like the X-Men and Spidey) know what they like.

    You might compare it to how Hollywood is now mostly preoccupied with sequels and remakes for its big blockbusters.
     
  10. Captain Craig

    Captain Craig Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Even then we are still talking mid-70's creation. Even discounting him coming out of a Stan Lee creation.
    Same for Punisher, era and argument, mid-70s.

    Is there a character that has been created post 1980 that has had a huge impact on not just comics but media as well?
    To try and answer my own question I'd say Venom, but again its the 'spun out of a Lee character' discounted argument. Maybe Deadpool will be? Again, spun out of mutant books. Does that discount him?

    I think it might be unfair to discount that way since a large portion of Marvel has his fingerprints on so many characters.
     
  11. Hermiod

    Hermiod Admiral Admiral

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    ^As I said, it's my view that the iconic characters are iconic because of the size of the audience when they were created. The comic book audience is much smaller now so I see the iconic characters being created in video games and movies instead.
     
  12. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    That would depend on what you mean by iconic. Until the recent film, most people didn't really know who Iron Man was, for example.
     
  13. Hermiod

    Hermiod Admiral Admiral

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    I would say Spider-Man, Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, the Hulk and maybe a few others are iconic. The others, not so much. I think Thor, for example, is going to require some explaining nearer the time.

    I'm not sure I'd actually put Cap on that list.
     
  14. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Cap is definitely iconic; people know the look and have a concept of what "Captain America" is, though this is actually somewhat problematic when selling the character/film (particularly outside the US), since perceptions of Cap are heavily linked to how you perceive America. The general public's image of Cap is a guy obnoxiously chanting "U-S-A!" and waving a "Four More Years of Bush" sign.
     
  15. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

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    There's only so many archetypes you can toss into a comic book without being completely repetitive. They pretty much used them all up in the 1960s. ... As for Bagley, I just read a Newsarama article and it sounds like he drew some Spidey pages for this "Requiem" thing a year or two ago before his exclusivity ran up because Bendis said they've been sitting on these pages forever.
     
  16. Nick Ryder

    Nick Ryder Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah Thor MIGHT be a bit of an odd one because he's not your straightforward "superhero". I know my mom remembers the old Thor TV show (I think from the 70s) (She had a thing for blondes!) but I don't know how many 'non-comics-fans' will really KNOW him. Iron Man was like that too, every Marvel/Comics fan knew him but the "audience at large" was kind of clueless on him, until the movie... NOW he's mega-badass.

    What I sort of think Marvel needs to do more of is do short but sweet "intro to this character" type things on TV, like a made for TV special. Not a movie mind you, but a sort of documentary about. Introduce people to some of the lore behind the character. And then toward the end talk about the new movie. But make it more about the character. THEN make damn sure they sell the TPBs of some of the more "iconic" stories in every place that sells books. There's no excuse why a Marvel Masterworks type collection could NOT be sold at every store. Or even a non-movie tie in "Special" comic. The more people MIGHT know about the characters, the more they'll appreciate the movie.

    And I always thought they should have guys in costume going to every theater or big event handing out small "ashcan" sized comics to everyone. They need to learn the finer points of guerilla marketing. Granted early buzz will sell tickets and if it's a GOOD movie, then the reviews and buzz from that alone will make it a success, but you still need to get people really interested and y'know what... maybe actually get people into the comics shops
     
  17. coolghoul

    coolghoul Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Please don't hit me when I say this - but I don't like going to comics shops. The one time that I have been there in a recent year, the staff were friendly but I get a little intimidated by the sight of nothing but comics all over. It makes me think that people need to be hard-core comics collectors (who can correct people like Thrall did earlier, about what exactly happened during a particular run and who were the people writing it during that time and what the reasons were) rather than people like me who has *gaps* all over and has no discernment (except for sticking to DC and Marvel mostly) in the stuff that I read except for it being available to me.

    I much more prefer it when comics were available at the magazine sections of neighborhood grocery chains. They are completely out of comics now. Walmart doesn't have comics in their shops either. The big book chains do have lots of trades but I don't see individual comics (floppies) there. The grocery chains used to have it in the 90s and then something pushed it out (low sales?). I remember Spider-man and several Clone related floppies at the local grocery thing. That's where you get the kids and the young parents interested...

    Anyway, that's my view...
     
  18. Nick Ryder

    Nick Ryder Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Completely agree with you there. With an average price tag between 2.99 - 3.99 for a montly comic, they're now out of the "mommy buy me this!" range. Secondly, by not having them in more places, they're limiting their readership. I know they're kind of trying to compensate by doing the Online Comics thing, but that's not the same as picking up a stack of comics at the local drug store or Wal-Mart/Target/K-Mart/grocery store. I suppose they do SORTA do that with those "marvel adventures" magazine style comics that are sorta all ages, which aren't horrible, but not the regular monthly comics that "matter".

    Civil War really changed Marvel for the worst, Marvel has actually gotten almost MORE depressing and screwed up.

    I recall a line that Superman uttered in the JLA/Avengers crossover from a few years back - "Your own world be may a sorry, disgraceful shambles, but you're not going to bring your madness to ours as well."

    Basically with the DC heroes going "what a mess! How did they let it get this bad?" and then the Marvel heroes going "They're practically idolized here!"

    I mean, when they killed Cap it was like, they killed their "heart" or something. I mean, Cap is, was and always will be a hero. And they go and make him some kind of rebel? I dunno... JoeQ really has made a joke of the Marvel Universe. He's sucked it into the darkenss. Hell he fucked up Spider-Man and had the WORST idea ever, so bad that NO ONE WANTED TO DO IT, so he had to do the art himself. Why? He'll say it was because it was so important. I think it was because no one wanted to be the devil. And ol' JoeyQ put his horns and hooves on and went to the drawing board.

    Who put that dickhead in charge anyway? Bring back Tom DeFalco! Bring back Bob Haras even! Hell I'll even settle for that ego maniac Jim Shooter!
     
  19. RJDiogenes

    RJDiogenes Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

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    ^^ Eh, he's just in tune with the times. Today's audience sucks down that 'darker and grittier' bullshit like beer. nuBSG, nuTrek (even real Trek was doing it with the Borg), all the rape and death at DC; even good stuff like Firefly and Lost have fallen into the trap sometimes. And then you've got mainstream stuff like The Shield, Rescue Me, torture porn, et cetera, ad infinitum. It's the culture. Crap like "Civil War" and "Dark Reign" are just another part of the parody.

    The Borders that I go to has a Comic rack with monthlies, and I think there's a Spider-Man magazine that is sold in the magazine section. But regular comics are too overpriced. They should go back to cheap paper and four colors. The glossy paper just makes them look, ironically, cheap and plastic anyway.
     
  20. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I used to love getting comics from Wal-Mart. While I don't mind comic book stores-the staffs are usually friendly, the selections are great, and they have a lot of neat toys, figurines, etc., it can be a bit daunting going in there an seeing so many different types of books. I do think the price of comics and their overall limited accessibility has hurt the market. I don't know if TPB are the way to go. There are good and bad points about them. They are durable and you get the story, hopefully, in just one volume. But at the same time, the pricing can be a bit much, esp. if the story isn't that good. It seemed like back in the day, only the important stories went the TPB route. Now trades are used for every storyline, no matter how consequential.