Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by King Daniel Beyond, Jun 11, 2010.

  1. kkozoriz1

    kkozoriz1 Fleet Captain

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    Spock saw that it was useless to argue with Kirk since kirk would simply do what he wanted to do anyway. Once he offered to be his first office he was showing that he was willing to follow Kirks orders. Everything Spock did turned out badly. Everything Kirk did worked. Spock was just acknowledging that he has more to learn from Kirk than vice versa
     
  2. Temis the Vorta

    Temis the Vorta Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Then they have their work cut out for them, kicking Kirk's arc into high gear so that he does become the leader that people will follow. I outlined the most important points to cover in my previous post.

    Pine is a charismatic actor, so that's not the problem. The problem is the same as for any leaders: his people must believe he cares about them; that he believes in the same things they do; and that he has the courage and audacity to make tough decisions when the need arises (ie, they feel they can trust him not to fold under pressure or make stupid decisions).

    Leadership isn't a talent so much as a collection of skills that anyone can learn. The things that can't be faked are things like: are you the sort of person who actually is capable of caring about the good of the group over your own self? And do you honestly believe in whatever it is that defines the group you are leading (because if you don't, you definitely shouldn't try to fake it).

    This, plus Spock's arc (most likely him going into an emotional tailspin as he increasingly fails to cope with the events of Trek XI), could take two more movies to fully play out, especially since there also has to an action-based plotline (external threat) and some time needs to be devoted to the other five characters. Maybe they need three more movies.

    If Kirk is an iconoclast/badass in the service of the things that make him a good leader, then those aren't incompatible. For example:

    -Starfleet gives him a stupid order that he knows will needlessly put his crew in harm's way, and he defies it at the risk of his career.

    -An Admiral gives him an order that he knows is a breach of Federation ethics and therefore threatens the cohesion of not just the group under his command, but Starfleet in general. He defies this order.

    -He is forced to roll the hard six. Being a badass like Bill Adama was a badass is a good thing in a leader, and an essential thing in a military leader.

    All those elements need to be put into a script before Pine can act them on screen. It will take two or three movies before they can shoehorn even the minimum in, inbetween action scenes. Shatner had the luxury of developing the character in 50 minute chunks every week. Pine has a measly two hours every two years. Of course the poor guy seems more shallow!
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2010
  3. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Oh yippee, just what we need. NuInsurrection.
     
  4. Temis the Vorta

    Temis the Vorta Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That story can be done well, in addition to being frakked up. :rommie:

    Everything that I've said about Kirk presupposes that the writers know how to craft a good story. But "Kirk stands on principle," is a scene or storyline we do need to see, because it's an essential part of getting Kirk from point A to point B and beyond.

    You can't grouse that he's not a leader and then grouse about the things the writers need to do, to get him to become a leader. There are some standard tropes I fully expect them to use, because they're a good shorthand way of crafting the character arc they need, and they don't have the luxury of hours and hours of screen time.
     
  5. kkozoriz1

    kkozoriz1 Fleet Captain

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    Are you saying that the next movie will have different writers? :lol:
     
  6. Temis the Vorta

    Temis the Vorta Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The story might have been a tad weak this time around (especially in their woefully generic villain - the Romulans are even in more desperate need of development than Kirk is!) but I have faith that they'll do better in that department next time around. ;)
     
  7. Captain_Rogers

    Captain_Rogers Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Apparently some of you say a parallel universe version of this movie different than most of us.

    Kirk didn't show this or that.....huh?

    No maturity, no sense of authority, no loyalty to his crew...really?!?!?!?!

    First off, lest we fortget....OLD Spock told Kirk how to "steal" command of the Enterprise. He told Kirk it was necessary.

    After assuming command, he changes plans and sets a course to intercept the Romulans saying that either the Romulans are going down or they are. Willingness to lay down his life and that of the crew to save Earth and the Federation is a pretty LARGE show of dedication.

    Later when Spock says he can beam over to the Narada, Kirk says he's not going to let Spock do that, he's going with him. Sure sounded like "our" Kirk to me. Kirk goes into a hard combat situation, proving he won't ask someone to do he wouldn't do himself.

    Then when Spock gets all weird and is doing his please tell Uhura bit, Kirk repeats to him their plan is going to work. No question, no doubt. a Leader saying we are going to face crappy odds and win. Period. Sure sounds like a good leader to me.

    I think part of the problem is some of you lack any real world experience with human behavior it seems. Many of you lack the understanding to see how being a little arrogant, a little cocky can still mesh with being a good leader and a person who can show caring and loyalty and earn respect.

    Based on tidbits we learned about James T Kirk in the original series and beyond, this rather lamely titled NuKirk, this NEW James T Kirk, managed to provide exactly the kind of youngster I expected to see "our" James T Kirk to develop from.

    As for Scotty, well, in the original series he provided comic relief as often as he was serious. In this, we saw only one brief aspect of him. And he's young still. I don't hold much credibility for the complaints offered so far.
     
  8. Temis the Vorta

    Temis the Vorta Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    We saw glimmers of those elements, but there wasn't enough screen time for more than a glimmer. Those are the elements that subsequent movies need to develop.

    Which is good, of course. The characters all need to have some sort of arc, and Kirk and Spock need the most substantial arcs. It can't just be funny colored aliens and splosions.

    Anybody would try to save their home planet. There was no discussion at all of Federation ideals (maybe because of lack of time combined with an assumption that the audience is at least passingly familiar with them). It would be nice for subsequent movies to address this in dialogue at least briefly. Starfleet is more than just space cops.

    I think the problem is that in real life, the arrogant, cocky types are almost always selfish idiots who make abysmal leaders. They think they can be good leaders, but it's a pathetic self-delusion. The real leaders I've met - and I've met a few - are good communicators and collaborators, and are careful not to make a bad impression by coming off as arrogant or displaying any other traits that disrupt the cohesion of the group. They know how they are perceived by others, and that this perception is supremely important. Even if they are arrogant in reality, they have the self-awareness and self-discipline to suppress it.

    Which is not to say that this particular character can't be cocky and also a good leader. But it's a combo that isn't all that common in the real world that I've ever noticed, so the screenwriters need to sell it to us.

    That just came off as glib. Anyone can say, rah-rah-rah, we're gonna win! A good leader will be honest about the situation. If they're going into what's likely to be a suicide mission, say so. Self-delusion, or attempts to delude your team, is not a leadership trait. Anyone who's in Starfleet has already made the choice to sacrifice their life under certain circumstances, so there's no need to be dishonest about the situation.