Can Pine's Kirk work as an authority figure?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by King Daniel Beyond, Jun 11, 2010.

  1. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No they aren’t, unless you’re absolutely certain that not a single person in your crew is going to squeal. What are the odds that Nyota would have kept the secret from Spock in order to protect Kirk? Somewhere between zero and none, if not less.

    That’s the way the military works. When secrets have to be kept, they are shared only on a need-to-know basis, and sometimes not even then. Anyone who is in the military is going to have to learn to deal with the fact that their superiors don’t always tell them everything.
     
  2. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Guess that's one of the challenges of being a commanding officer. Trying to get your crew into doing things they believe is wrong even though it's the only solution to a problem everyone faces. Maybe if Kirk told his crew that he was planning on getting caught and that he would accept full responsibility for his actions, because in the end, that's what he wanted to do. Prove a point.
     
  3. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    Re: How come no one is working on the Star Trek sequel?

    Well, not THAT immediate.

    Adviser: How did that guy beat your test?
    Spock: I do not know.

    Hmm. Kirk is seen doing nothing, the lights go off for some reason that no one really knows why, than all of a sudden the klingon ships are disabled and go down with one shot. Why would their first impression be that he legitimately beat the test? Did IQs decrease over the centuries where we can't fathom the possibility of a system error? Cause that's what it looked like to me.
     
  4. Devon

    Devon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There is nothing to make a comparison to, so how did they get it wrong?

    This is all we know from "The Wrath of Khan":
    1.) He cheated

    The rest is just fanon or something derived from a book. Since what is on screen is official then we now know how alternate timeline Kirk beat the test.

    No one said that he "legitimately" did. But the test was beaten, and it threw the superiors completely off guard.

    Not when Kirk is gloating about it and it's obvious that he's making a mockery of the simulation. This was all in that scene.
     
  5. Devon

    Devon Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: How come no one is working on the Star Trek sequel?

    Double post.
     
  6. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Re: How come no one is working on the Star Trek sequel?

    Jeyl:
    The guy said "How did that kid beat your test?" sarcastically.

    They were watching Kirk the whole time - there's no way they would have missed the way he (didn't) react to the "system error" - and they way he was acting prior should have clued everyone in.

    Spock was pissed that someone messed with his program.

    Once the exact how and when was figured out, Kirk was called out at the assembly by Komack and Spock.
     
  7. Rusty0918

    Rusty0918 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Well, the Kirk we saw in Trek XI worked for an introduction, but in a sequel, if he's still as cocky and devil-may-care as a captain, then we'll know the real truth. To me, the jury is still out on them. The sequel will REALLY prove how things will be.
     
  8. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm convinced that Saavik didn't know what scenario she was facing when she walked into the simulator. She had probably been in the same simulator dozens of times, often dealing with routine ship handling or scientific scenarios. The Kobayashi Maru was a surprise, Saavik seemed to figure it out only after hearing the words "in the neutral zone."

    Kirk took the test three times, if the first time through it was a surprise, not there after. Even if the tester changed the scenario each time, Kirk knew what to expect.

    Kirk might have been thrown out of the academy or even faced time in a Starfleet detention facility. Most likely he wouldn't have wanted McCoy and the others to face a similar fate.

    I don't think the prospect of expulsion would have bothered Pine Kirk very much, he was only at the academy as a lark anyway.
     
  9. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    As Jeyl points out, there is no “fear in the face of certain death” when the cadets know it’s a simulation. There isn’t even a fear of failing the mission when the cadets know that nothing they do can affect that outcome of the mission.

    So how about this as another way the film might have handled it:

    The instructors want to see how the cadets deal with failure, so they create this test for them to fail. They do not acknowledge that it is literally impossible to win. There are rumors that nobody has ever beaten the test. The administrators refuse to confirm or deny the rumors.

    Cadets who take the test hope to be the first to beat it, and know that if they fail they have to handle the failure with composure.

    Kirk, after trying and failing twice, discovers that the simulator is programmed to ensure the mission’s failure no matter what the cadets do. He concludes that “the test itself is a cheat,” so he decides to cheat and respond to the resulting accusations with a “You’re all a bunch of hypocrites” defense. In the process, he also exposes the true nature of the test, which had widely been suspected but never known for certain.
     
  10. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That is the point! If it was a test to "experience fear in the face of certain death", you would not be able to take it three times. Ever played scary maze 3 times and still get surprised?

    It was a test of CHARACTER. No matter what you do, you lose the simulation. You simply cannot win, because every time you might save the ship, they add another bunch of problems. Most cadets would simply live with this fact and move on. Kirk didn't. AND he found the solution to the no-win-scenario. Which is why he got the commendation for original thinking. He did not cheat. He probably did what Starfleet was always looking for.

    His son, who wanted to kill him an hour before, sarcastically said "He cheated." But he didn't take the test and didn't know anything about it.

    And then there is this little dialogue in TWOK:

    In the TWOK novel there is a scene right after the simulation. Kirk in a briefing of the cadets. And he gives Saavik yet another scenario to think about. She's on a sinking boat with another person, the water is full of sharks, what does she do? When she answers she would sacrifice herself, he provokes her by saying that the other person isn't worth the money Starfleet invested into her training or something like that. Then Saavik gets angry, and he learns something about her.

    That is the whole purpose of the test.

    They got it right in TNG, too. When Wesley had this surprise test at the academy in which he had to quickly decide who to help. And when Troi took the command test and had to send someone to death to save the ship. Test of character. You can't save everyone and have to sacrifice skilled people and even friends, which is also a form of the no-win-scenario.



    And in the new movie, the new purpose of "experience fear in face of certain death" doesn't even make sense. NOBODY in the simulator room was afraid of anything. Uhura and McCoy were both annoyed, but not afraid. The bridge set had a huge set of panorama windows with observers looking down on them, the effects and graphics were not convincing at all. That is totally not how you invoke fear.
     
  11. Wynterhawk

    Wynterhawk Fleet Captain Fleet Captain


    I agree with this. While the writers were compelled to show him as a bad-boy rule flaunter, there was nothing else in the character arc that made him likeable. Which brings me to the notion that I do not believe, considering Spock's attitude toward him, that Spock would have voluntarily come back at the last minute offering his services to the captain. Methinks there was some mighty Vulcan arm twisting going on. :lol:
     
  12. Cadet49

    Cadet49 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I completely agree with you. To me, Pine just doesn't have the presence that Shatner did, and something has been lost in the character. Can you picture Pine's Kirk giving a dramatic speech about the nature of freedom and self-determination (as in "The Apple" or "Mirror, Mirror" or "Where No Man Has Gone Before"), strategizing over chess with Mr. Spock, or quoting famous poets (as in "How Sharper than a Serpent's Tooth"). In TOS, Kirk seemed like an intelligent, well-read, deep-thinking leader, a portrayal helped by Shatner's Shakespearean training. Pine just doesn't have that presence for me - I can see glimpses of it, but if that sense of command isn't evidence strongly in the next movie, I think the audience that were fans of the original series and films will disengage, which would be really unfortunate!:(
     
  13. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't have a problem seeing him in charge of this group. None at all.
     
  14. kkozoriz1

    kkozoriz1 Fleet Captain

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    Let NuKirk be NuKirk and let Spock run things. The First Officer usually runs most of it anyway. The Captain makes the decision, the Exec makes sure it's done. Gives Kirk more time for hooking up with the ladies.
     
  15. EnsignRicky

    EnsignRicky Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, Sports Authority. :devil:

    Nah, I kid. He's good. :techman:
     
  16. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wait a second, which one of these two is supposed to be the Vulcan and which is supposed to be the human?
     
  17. scnj

    scnj Captain Captain

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    Why are people obsessing over the fact that he doesn't have the same qualities as Shatner's Kirk? It's not the same character. The death of his father altered the timeline, and new Kirk grew up to be a different person. Ultimately, he ended up in the same position of authority, but that does not make him the same person.

    And yes, I do think he'll make a good leader. I saw him in a small film called Carriers that was released shortly after Star Trek, and he had to make several very difficult decisions along the way, and his acting sold me on it every single time.
     
  18. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This could be a good theme for the sequel. NuSpock sees himself as an expert on command. He has command experience and is the creator of one of the Academy’s key tests of command ability. NuKirk is inexperienced and has little regard for what the Academy teaches about it.

    NuSpock could see NuKirk as an on-the-job-trainee and himself as the trainer (which would address Wynterhawk’s question of why NuSpock volunteered to be NuKirk’s first officer). NuKirk has his own ideas and is not receptive to what NuSpock is trying to teach.
     
  19. kkozoriz1

    kkozoriz1 Fleet Captain

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    NuSpock wouldn't see himself as being in a position to teach NuKirk. Kirk broke all the rules, disobeyed orders and saved Earth (but failed to save Vulcan). For that he was promoted past Spock and given command of the newest ship in the fleet. Spock, if anything, put himself up as First Officer so he could serve under Kirk, perhaps to learn from him.
     
  20. Captrek

    Captrek Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes he would. NuKirk wouldn’t see NuSpock as being in a position to teach him anything, but NuSpock wouldn’t see things the same way. Just because NuKirk pulled a rabbit or two out of his hat while breaking all the rules doesn’t mean that everything that NuSpock knows about command is worthless. At least, that’s how I think NuSpock would see it.