Buffy season nine discussion thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Turtletrekker, Mar 9, 2011.

  1. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ As we've already covered in the thread...no. There have been interviews in the thread explaining what Angel and Faith's dynamic is timothy.
     
  2. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And I disagree. Even though I have some problems with #1 and though #2 is a bit too straightforward in its dialogue, Buffy season 9 has been a lot more interesting and layered. I can think of several scenes and panels that really make you think and try to analyze what's been said, try to figure out the underlying feelings and motivations. Even with all the narrations by Buffy, there is still some mystery about how Buffy feels about herself and the people in her life; and that's even more so the case with the other characters; we may know that Willow thinks that breaking the Seed was bad, while Spike thinks it was the right thing to do and he's there to help Buffy, but beyond that, we're left to speculate on how Willow, Spike, Xander or Dawn feel and how their future will shape up. The new characters and potential villains have all been ambiguous. How did the new vampire-killer get his powers, and is he really such a great guy, or is there something ominous about him? What's the deal with the demon released from the mystical prison, and does he want to kill Buffy, to thank her, or something else? Are the cops going to be Buffy's enemies or allies? And so on.

    Whereas in Angel & Faith, everything is laid out openly in the dialogue: it's very straightforward and plot-driven and leaves very little unexplained. The villains are all one-dimensional, obvious bad guys (with the exception of Whistler; I hope we'll see more of him, he was one of the reasons why #1 was interesting). Angel's characterization is fine, but Faith's is a bit off, and her idealization and justifications of Angel are getting annoying (and she went especially far in this issue, with her "there will be no more apocalypses thanks to you and Buffy" statement, which makes about as much sense as "I signaled her with my eyes"). We're constantly being told (by Faith) that Angel is the best thing since sliced bread, instead of actually seeing it. I liked issue 1 the best, but I feel that the subsequent issues have not been as good.

    The one area where Angel & Faith is clearly superior over Buffy is the art. Issacs > Jeanty. One of my LJ friends just said that Isaacs does a great characterization of Faith; Gage, not so much. And I agree with that.

    The best things in Angel & Faith so far have been the revelations about the new post-Seed world - the auctions of Mohra blood, the fact that the remaining magical artefacts and people with inherent magical abilities have become very sought-after, the new high status of vampires in the demon world, their mainstream acceptance and sexual allure to the humans... And the revelation about Whistler's role. Like I said, I want to find out more about him and his connection to Twilight, and what was the role of the PTB in it all.

    edit: However, I have to say one thing: if the villains are one-dimensional, at least our heroes are morally ambiguous - and both doing stupid things! While Angel is preparing to resurrect Giles, Faith seems to be preparing to use the Mohra blood to make Angel human; in order words, she wants to do something similar to Angel that he did to Buffy in season 8 and that he's preparing to do to Giles now: make a crucial decision about him without asking him about it, and violate his bodily integrity and make him into something different than what he is, assuming that she knows what's best for him and that he'd be happy and grateful once she managed to do it - even though there is a huge possibility and some clear signs that he would actually hate it.

    And is she thinks that Angel's biggest problem is that he's a vampire and that all his problems would go away if he just became human... then she really doesn't understand him. He should explain to her, as he did to Buffy in Amends, that the real problem isn't the vampire, it's the man. Twilight got to him using his human flaws, and a human Angel would still feel the same guilt, he would just find it more difficult to fight if he didn't have vampire powers, which he pretty much tells her in this issue as well.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2011
  3. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's the thing though about Faith's thinking about Angel...she doesn't understand him the way Buffy does. Faith can't. She has a very different relationship with Angel than Buffy did, and Angel hasn't exactly been open with her. Remember that everyone has shunned Angel and Faith was the only one to see him through his catatonic state and now working with him. Like I said I think she has a very naive and idealistic view of Angel. This is what makes their dynamic so interesting.
     
  4. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oooh, I've just read a great remark by a poster on BF who was replying to another poster's idea that there would be nothing wrong with keeping the Mohra demon in captivity and draining its blood to cure people. It hadn't occurred to me, but this makes humans a bit like vampires, doesn't it? Draining the blood of another sapient being, against its will, to fulfill their own needs?
     
  5. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed it would.
     
  6. timothy

    timothy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    have we ever seen the mohra demon on either tv series?
     
  7. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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  8. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    With regards to some of your other points DevilEyes I kind of like that things have been plot driven and face paced and explained. This is supposed to be high octane after all while Buffy they've stated is more grounded. I'm enjoying both books...I'm just enjoying Angel and Faith more.
     
  9. timothy

    timothy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    very cool thanks for that.
     
  10. ReadyAndWilling

    ReadyAndWilling Fleet Captain

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    does anyone know how to watch the 'motion comics' of season 8? i tried watching it but i struggled to get through it. was i the only one?
     
  11. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I never had any desire to watch them. I saw a bit of one on Youtube and that was enough. Why bother with watching an animated version of the comic with weird voices that don't sound like the actors from the show (and from what I've seen, don't belong to very good actors)? I know how to read and I can read the comics, there's no need for the motion comic.

    (Though it would be such fun if they did the rest of season 8 as a motion comic, imagine voice actors doing #34... :devil:)
     
  12. timothy

    timothy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    reading comics is way better than that motion crap. it like listening to books on tape can't stand them. I highly suggest that you pick up the graphic novels. much better way to follow the series.
     
  13. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ I'm surprised you aren't into audiobooks. I thought you liked everything? I'm a big fan of audiobooks. They kill time while travelling and depending on who the reader is, can be a lot of fun.
     
  14. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  15. timothy

    timothy Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    looking forward to this week Buffy the vampire slayer #3 of freefall is out. so I can pick the latest issue of angel with it too. can't wait till wensday.
     
  16. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Now we're awesome! After what I still believe to be a slow start setting up plot and introducing new characters we've started to get right down to the nitty gritty. Severin is a very interesting character. Given the nature of the world now that magic is gone (or at least powered down significantly) I do believe that we are well on our way marching towards the Fray future...slowly but surely. We learn about why Xander's been sleeping on the couch and it's rather amusing. The art was good in this issue, but that has been my problem with Jeantry all along. Inconsistent art bugs me more than bad art. I'd rather see bad art on a constant basis rather than inconsistent awesome art all the time and unfortunately that has what we've been getting. The writing has been excellent and characterization bang on. This issue felt like a classic Buffy episode more so than the previous two.
     
  17. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't think I'd prefer if the art was always bad. :lol:

    I liked the issue, even though it's focused more on the plot than the deep characterization and interpersonal relationships. It's understandable, since there's a lot of new plot developments to deal with. There will be time for a more nuanced exploration of relationships.

    I'm not sure if the explanation about the fight between Xander and Dawn was the truth, or something they came up with to tell the police. I don't think I'd be telling strangers about my private matters. Anyway, I like them much better in #3 than in #2. Here they do show interest in Buffy's well-being, and offer good advice to Buffy to talk to the police and sort things out. They don't start interrogating Buffy about her new friend/colleague, or try to argue with her some more, but she's an adult and can make her decisions, and they probably figured Severin was a part of the fight. (Which they are trying to leave.) It wouldn't be the first time they've met a male demon-fighter.

    In #2, I was more irked by the two of them not showing much interest or concern in what is going on with Buffy, than in not giving her shelter. I said it before, I would have been happier if they had told her: Buffy, you're being stupid. You shouldn't have ran away from police custody. You better sort it out with the police. We don't want to give you shelter so we wouldn't be accomplices harboring a fugitive.

    I thought that in #2 Buffy was acting incredibly reckless and stupid when he ran from the police, instead of staying until everything is cleared and they let her go - I can't see what evidence they'd have against her - but I don't see anything wrong with her wanting to take care of a nest of feral vampires first. She's already a fugitive, things aren't going to get significantly worse if she talks to Dowling a day later, and sorting things out with the police might take a while, and she's just heard about this new vampire threat.

    The twist about Eldre Koh/Severin is good, although it's something a lot of people on Buffyforums had been speculated about. I'm starting to think that with so much speculation, there's very little that can still surprise us. [​IMG] I found it funny that Koh is so used to being imprisoned that he wants to live at Alcatraz because it reminds him of 'home'. Poor demon, it will take a while to adjust. I assume he meant the part about "breathing the same air" metaphorically, like Spike when he talked about "putting him [Angel] in the bloody ground" in Becoming II; either that, or Koh doesn't know much about vampires. We get another reminder that pure demons look down on vampires (or rather did in the pre-Seed world), but maybe he shouldn't, since he is no stronger than Spike, at least not at the moment.

    The cliffhanger ending seems to suggest that Severin is going to try to drain Buffy's power, but I'm not sure that Severin is really going to immediately attack Buffy .
    Solicitations for #4 suggest that they'll still be friendly for a while.
    And hopefully his storyline doesn't unfold that quickly. Furthermore, I don't think he's been planning to take away Buffy's powers, even if it's what he wants now; for starters, he doesn't know enough about his powers yet, he's probably never met a Slayer before, and maybe he had no idea that he could take powers from a Slayer until he touched Buffy and saw the glowy thing starting to happen. Besides, he's been far too open about his desire for power, and that he could even be more powerful than Buffy; sounds more like someone who is just starting to figure it out, rather than someone who had it planned all along. I would certainly like him to be more morally ambiguous than downright moustache-twirling evil, even though I think he will likely be the villain for the season. I've said before the issue came out that I see him more as Faith 2.0 (rather than a new love interest or whatever else people were speculating): someone who seems like a suitable, if not entirely trustworthy, slaying partner, maybe even a possible replacement for Buffy if she doesn't want to be 'the one', but who turns out to be just a bit too much in love with his powers and not so concerned about morality. Though he and Faith come from the opposite poles of the financial/class divide, in addition to different gender.

    Someone on BF posted a comparison between the last panel of this issue and the guy with the glasses from#40, now it seems they're the same person. But then, Willow, Simone and the fairy were also depicted as threats in season 9, and at least one of them isn't exactly evil.

    Now the bad:

    Willow's explanation about zompires makes the kind of sense that's not. If the demon isn't animating zompires, then what is? Why aren't they corpses? What is the magic that Severin is sucking from them?

    And if they're feral and mindless because the demon isn't there - then it seems like vampire's human memories and intelligence and emotions come from... the demon?! [​IMG] Isn't the demon mindless, like Pure-Demon-Angel in Pylea?

    I really hope that Willow is wrong, but unfortunately they probably just needed to get zompires and it didn't matter what nonsensical explanation they came up with. The conversation at the writers' meeting probably went something like this:

    "Hey, it would be great if we had a new kind of vampires that are totally mindless and feral. Like zombies. Zompires!"
    "Zompires! Cool! Great idea!"
    "And anyone who gets sired after the Seed was broken becomes a zompire!'
    "But how do we explain it?"
    "I dunno, we'll think of some crap".

    But then, it was probably similar with most of the mythology.

    "How do we explain why Angel is different from the other vampires?"
    "He has a soul."
    "What is the soul?"
    "Well, it's something that makes him good. And when he doesn't have it, he's evil."
     
  18. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This issue wasn't the first place where I heard the term "zompires", a show here in Canada called "Todd and the Book of Evil" has a character saying it to the main characters and now has become a part of their promo spot on Space Channel here. I didn't even think it was that creative or funny. With regards to Dawn and Xander it is fully possible that their explanation was merely distraction but knowing the two of them and their usual banter back and forth (it reminds me a bit of Xander and Anya) I wouldn't be surprised if it was but given Xander's emotional state when he had that talk with Buffy in issue one yeah it is unlikely that is the actual reason.
     
  19. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Stormwreath has an interesting theory about the Xander/Dawn fight and why Xander is having a problem - that with the magic fading, the false memories of Dawn pre-season 5 are also fading from everyone's mind (since they were a result of the spell) except for Dawn, since in this scenario the memories are inherent to her and she would still 'remember' everything. Here's a drabble he wrote about it on his LJ: http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/129259.html
    My only problem with this is that Buffy should be equally if not more concerned about this, and we haven't seen that. Although one can easily see this as being the subject of her conversation with Xander in #1: "Dawnie..." "Doesn't have to know".
     
  20. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's a fascinating theory and really plausible. Buffy should be equally concerned about this but in her defense she has been a little distracted lately as evident by recent events. She's a fugitive and running from the law so it's not like she can easily tackle this problem. If this turns out to be the case I could see this becoming a major plot point for Buffy and Xander to deal with. It would be just the kind of thing that Joss would do to us :)
     

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