Buffy & Angel comics

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Plain Simple, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. Plain Simple

    Plain Simple Commodore Commodore

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    I recently got a craving for more Buffy and Angel stories, so I tried some of the new comics. I read Tales of the Slayers, Tales of the Vampires, and the first few stories of Buffy season 8 (I got the Tales and BtVS s8, part 1 'library editions'). Tastes like more, but looking up which other Buffy and Angel comics are out there, I get completely overwhelmed by the quantity (one of the reasons I'm usually not much of a comic person). Season 8, season 9, After the Fall, after-After the Fall, Spike, Illyria, Willow, Riley, ... ?!

    So here's a question ---it's probably been answered before on this board, but I did some searching and couldn't find any (recent) threads on this topic---, which comics (series and one-shots) are the 'official' continuation of the show? And a second question: Within those 'official stories', which ones tie together as one story, and which ones are just separate one-shot stories? And finally, are these 'official stories' bundled in large volumes like the library editions, or do I have to track down all the one-shots and spin-offs separately, if I want to read them?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The last post in this thread was only 9 days ago.

    Everything published in the last five years or so by Dark Horse is canon. Angel: After The Fall and some of the Spike material from IDW is canon as well. Also, Joss' Fray mini about a 23rd centrury Slayer from some years back by Dark Horse tied into season 8.

    Here are Amazon search results for Buffy season 8.
     
  3. Plain Simple

    Plain Simple Commodore Commodore

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    Thanks. But since I've only just started season 8, a thread about season 9 seems a bit too far ahead. And anyway, it doesn't seem to address my larger question.

    Thanks!
     
  4. Ethros

    Ethros Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well I'll give it a go, "officially" you'd have Dark Horse's Buffy Season 8, IDW's Angel: After The Fall (along with Spike: ATF,) and the 8 part IDW Spike solo series


    For the best reading order I'd say read the Fray TPB first if you haven't already.
    Then Angel: After The Fall, this is split into 4 TPB's and Spike:ATF making 5 all together (there is a big collection of all 4 A:ATF's you can get too)

    Angel: After Fall v1 first, then v2, then Spike:ATF, then Angel v3 and v4




    *Then* you can keep reading the following IDW stories if you want, some are good fun, some not so much. They're not really 100% canon, Dark Horse is treating them like "maybe they happened, maybe not, either way we're not really gonna be mentioned too much from then anyway."
    The one arc immediately following ATF, Aftermath, is awful! So much so the writers of the following arcs ignored most of it and retconned the rest.

    Vol.6 'Last Angel in Hell' isn't bad, there's a nice ATF epilogue story in it, a Drusilla 2 parter, and a fun Angel & Spike at Comic-con tale. Then there's three more Angel books- Immortality For Dummies, The Crown Prince Syndrome, and The Wolf, The Ram and the Heart.
    And there's a also an Illyria miniseries too.

    Oh yeah and there's a little Lorne one shot too, which basically just has Lorne written out of the series because of Andy Hallett's death.




    Then there's the Spike series, which is considered pretty much canon, simply called 'Spike.' This is available as either two Hardcover volumes, or they've recently released a full TPB collection of it.





    Then after those start on the Buffy Season 8 stories (all the Angel & Spike stories take place before it.)
    These are available as 8 TPB's. Though recently the big Library editions have started to be released, which sounds like what you've got. These are just a big hardcover with 2 TPB stories in each, so they'll be 4 by the end. Only one has come out so far so either you wanna wait till they all come out or just make a start of the remaining TPB's (vols 3-8)

    The two Willow and Riley one shots are included in the TPB's so don't worry about those.
     
  5. Ethros

    Ethros Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If you wanted to go out and read everything post TV, I'd say this is the best order

    Angel: After The Fall v.1
    Angel: After The Fall v.2- First Night
    Spike: After The Fall
    Angel: After The Fall v.3
    Angel: After The Fall v.4
    Angel: Aftermath
    Angel: Last Angel in Hell
    Angel: Only Human
    Angel: Lorne- Music of the Spheres

    Angel: Immortality For Dummies
    Spike: The Devil You Know
    Angel: The Crown Prince Syndrome
    Illyria: Haunted
    Angel: The Wolf, the Ram, and the Heart

    Spike: The Complete Series
    Buffy Season 8 vol.1: Long Way Home
    Buffy Season 8 vol.2: No Future For You
    Buffy Season 8 vol.3: Wolves at the Gate
    Buffy Season 8 vol.4: Time of Your Life
    Buffy Season 8 vol.5: Predators and Prey
    Buffy Season 8 vol.6: Retreat
    Buffy Season 8 vol.7: Twilight
    Buffy Season 8 vol.8: Last Gleaming
    Angel & Faith vol.1: Live Through This
    Buffy Season 9 vol.1: Freefall
    Angel & Faith vol.2: Daddy Issues
    Buffy Season 9 vol.2: On Your Own



    But the ones highlighted aren't that necessary
     
  6. Plain Simple

    Plain Simple Commodore Commodore

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    Thanks! That helps a lot. I actually did read Fray years ago. Perhaps I should look that up again.

    I found the Spike Complete Series TPB yesterday. It was a good read and made me want more. :) So I ordered Spike: ATF. Should come in next week or so.

    What about Spike: Asylum and Spike: Shadow Puppets? I've seen these titles mentioned in places.

    I might read the 'unofficial' titles later as well, but since there's so much out there, I want to focus on the 'official' (canon, if you want) titles first.

    What about the ATF epilogue story in "Last Angel in Hell"? What's the status of that?

    As for the first library edition of BtVS season 8, it actually has an extra story in it that the TBP don't have (I think), and which was only (?) published online before. Do you know if the future library editions will have these extras as well, or will they contain the same material as the corresponding TPBs?
     
  7. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I know that there is a larger hardcover collection out there called "The End" which features Immortality for Dummies, The Crown Prince Syndrome, and The Wolf, the Ram, and the Heart. Would you say it's necessary to read any of the previous comics to understand what's going on? I have read After the Fall, and I definitely want to continue with these stories, but I'm sure if I should bother with the stuff in between.
     
  8. Ethros

    Ethros Vice Admiral Admiral

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    When those stories take place was left purposefully vague when they were written as they were just to be fun stories. As it stands they have to really happen during Angel Season 5, Asylum around the mid point, and Shadow Puppets near the end of the season. They feature characters who appear in After The Fall, and later the Spike series, so yeah if you can read them first that'd be a good starter.
    (These were the comics that made Whedon give Brian Lynch the job of writing Angel: ATF btw)


    Do you mean inbetween After The Fall and IFD?

    Not really I guess. Aftermath is just awful, in terms of art, dialogue, plot etc. It seemed the writer and artist had never seen an episode of Angel ever. All you need to know from that arc is that Kate Lockley comes back to LA and semi-joins Team Angel, as do Dez, who can morph into a big cat, and James, a former angel.
    Dez who doesn't really do anything and is soon casually killed off, and none of the other characters even care. And James who is retconned into being a villain all along. Another reason for doing this was Team-Angel was getting way too overcrowded, at one point there are like 10+ members


    Last Angel in Hell has an ok story about Gunn post ATF, the other tales in it are fairly superfluous.

    Only Human
    is just about Gunn and Illyria going on a road trip post ATF to deal with their issues, again its pretty pointless and doesn't reveal anything really.

    And the Lorne story is just a little tale of him going off to some other dimension to save the world, and that he's trapped there IIRC, but that maybe he could get back possibly. It's mainly because the writers weren't too keen on keeping on using the character after Andy had passed on.


    Spike: The Devil You Know
    is also a waste of time. It's just a team up story of him with Eddie Hope, the characer created for the back up stories of the IFD and CPS arcs. I think the plan orginally was to introduce him slowly that way and then have him come over to the main Angel stores, but once IDW knew they were losing the rights to Dark Horse, he was abandoned and his tale quickly wrapped up.


    Illyria: Haunted is great for the first two issues with her and Spike, the last two issues you can read through in about 4 minutes. They also feature her going through a change, slightly in her looks and also in her powers. Seen as she hasn't been seen yet in Angel & Faith it's unknown yet whether these will incorporated or not. If I were a betting man though I'd wager not.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
  9. Plain Simple

    Plain Simple Commodore Commodore

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    Thanks Ethros! I appreciate you going into all this detail.

    What do you think of the quality of the stories? I thought Tales of the Slayers and Tales of the Vampires were okay. Not great, and varying quality between the different stories, but fun overall. Perhaps I just missed the familiar characters. What I've read so far of BtVS s8 and Spike has impressed me quite a bit. It really feels like continuations of the characters I've come to know and love through the tv series. Is the quality of ATF and BtVS s8 and s9 stories fairly constant and on par with what I've read so far (in your opinion, of course)?
     
  10. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The extra story is "Always Darkest", the 3 pages web comic written by Joss Whedon? I love that one, it's one of my favorite issues of season 8.

    I don't have the library editions, but according to Wikipedia, the other 3 library editions don't have any of the other web comics. Which is fine, since the rest of them aren't really particularly interesting or good and you don't really need them to understand anything. All the web comics can be found on Dark Horse's Myspace page under "Dark Horse presents", but you have to search a little. Most of them aren't about the known characters, except a couple that feature Harmony.

    However, it seems that the library editions don't have the Willow one-shot and the Riley one-shot? Neither of those is crucial for understanding the story, but the Riley one-shot (written by Jane Espenson) does include more info on the main arc and a surprising (?) appearance by one character who is important to the mythology, which gets followed upon in season 9 (Angel & Faith). The Willow one-shot (written by Joss Whedon) is well written and focused on her character, so while it's not essential to the story, I recommend it if you want more insight into the character in season 8, and it explains some things about her relationships in season 8
    particularly her relationship with the snake lady Aluwyn/Saga Vasuki.

    The trade paper backs seem to include more material than the library editions: the Willow one-shot ("Goddesses and Monsters") and the Riley one-shot ("Commitment through Distance, Virtue through Sin") and, besides "Always Darkest", it also includes 3 other short web comics).

    There was one other one-shot in season 8, but it's not really connected to the season 8 characters or arcs except very tangentially, it's "Tales of the Vampires: The Thrill", and it's just OK, nothing that special, has no known characters, and the art is rather poor.

    The only things you really need for season 8 are the issues 1-40, plus the Willow and Riley one-shot and "Always Darkest", which give some more insight into the characters.

    It's better to only talk about season 9 once you finish season 8, to avoid spoilers. Season 9 is ongoing and contains not just the Buffy title but also Angel & Faith and two other spinoff miniseries featuring
    Spike and Willow, respectively.
    Plus there are two little mini-stories. I believe the first one, set before the beginning of season 9, is included in the first season 9 trade paperback.

    Which issues have you read so far?

    I would say that the first half of season 8 is of consistently high quality. Then it sags a bit, since the standalone issues from 21 to 25 differ in quality. And then... well, the climax of the season is very divisive and controversial, and many people thing that it ruined the season, but there are people who like it... I like some parts of it and I can appreciate the story as a whole, but it does some very problematic things and some issues are awful. The last issue, 8.40, however, is one of the best comic issues of Buffyverse, it managed to salvage the season as far as I'm concerned.

    However, I have been less than thrilled by season 9 so far. I think the writing is rather flat and the characterizations poor (Andrew Chambliss and Scott Allie have been writing the Buffy title since Joss is too busy and has only written 9.01 and given them storylines and guidelines) and, while many people love Angel & Faith, I think it's failed to follow up on season 8 properly and that the characterization of Angel is very cardboard.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  11. Ethros

    Ethros Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I would agree with DevilEyes in regard to Season 8, that it starts off well, sagged a bit in the middle with the pointless one shots, and then towards the end felt in places it had lost the plot quite a bit. But was still overall a very fun read and definitely worthwhile.


    As for After The Fall, yes if you're a fan of Angel you should definitely enjoy it. I thought the story was compelling all the way through, though I do remember being slightly disapointed at the way the "Hell-A" story was wrapped up, but yes overall it's awesome.

    The art however is another thing. Unlike Season 8 it didn't really have a regular artist. They should have just kept Franco Urru on it all the way through (he did #1-5, then went off to do Spike:ATF, and came back for the last three issues #15-17)
    The 'First Night' stories of #6-8 feature some great art to be fair, it's after that it suffers. Nick Runge did #9-11, and from the Wesley story in #7 you can see he's capable of greatness, I guess he was just rushed doing a monthly series as though he does some good work, some panels are pretty bad.
    Then Stephen Mooney does #12-14, and I just find a lot of his stuff for IDW's Angel & Spike comics really static and awkwardly drawn. Again, some panels great, some not so much.

    So thank god when Urru returned for the last three issues and delivers some of his finest work, wowza.
     
  12. Plain Simple

    Plain Simple Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, that's the one. Nice little story.

    I did find these, already, but thanks for pointing them out! One of these stories, "Carpe Noctem", is included in the "Tales" library edition. So is "The Thrill", which you mention below, btw.

    They don't? Hmmm... I was hoping that by going with the library editions I would get all the stories, including the remaining Dark Horse MySpace stories and the one-shots. I was even about to ask if anyone here knows if there will be season 9 library editions as well, but I'm starting to lean towards the paperbacks now.



    So the TPBs include all these stories? The one-shots and the web comics? If TPBs include more material (or at the very least the same) as the library editions, than I will go for them. And as a plus that means I won't have to wait that long :), and they take less storage space. Can anyone confirm this?


    Have these spinoffs started already? I've seen TPBs for the main Buffy and Angel&Faith series, but not for any spin offs... I think.


    A long time ago I read The Origin, Fray, and Angel: ATF vol.1. I cannot remember too much about them though. I also read BtVS s8 vols. 1 and 2 back then, but those I reread recently. Also Tales of the Slayers, Tales of the Vampires, and Spike (the 8 issue series).

    I've been spoiled already on a couple of major plot points. I'm curious to see how they get there though.

    Thanks for the feedback! I've been really enjoying reading these stories so far, and this discussion, as well as helping me figure out which books I want to read/buy, is also a lot of fun.
     
  13. Plain Simple

    Plain Simple Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, I loved that show. If ATF can keep that level up, I'll be happy. As I said above, I actually did read vol. 1 when it came out I think, but not really being a comic person, I never followed up on it. I think I liked it okay though.
     
  14. Ethros

    Ethros Vice Admiral Admiral

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    As for the Willow and Riley one shots not being included in the Library editions, of course they will. Why on earth wouldn't they when they're in the TPBs?

    I wouldn't trust Wiki's descriptions for a start, and the main reason is the Willow tale was in TPB 7, and the Riley tale in TPB 8.
    Volumes 7 & 8 will make up the 4th and final Library edition, which has yet to be announced anyway (with the 2nd out September 12th, and the 3rd out December 12th.) Look on the Dark Horse website.
     
  15. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Wiki isn't right about library edition Issue 3 at least. It says here (don't open the link, the cover pic is spoilery) that it contains 3 web comics (titles tagged as potentially spoilery)
    Harmony Bites, Harmony Comes to the Nation and Vampy Cat Play Friend
    that take place around issues 21-22.

    If they're including the web comics, I assume that they're including the one-shots as well and Wikipedia just has incomplete info, since those library issues haven't been released yet. My guess is that the Willow one-shot is in Issue 1 or 2, and the Riley one in Issue 4.

    According to this, Issue 1 contains two one-shots. If they meant Always Darkest as one of them, which is the other? http://www.darkhorse.com/Books/18-892/Buffy-the-Vampire-Slayer-Season-8-Library-Edition-Volume-1-HC
     
  16. Plain Simple

    Plain Simple Commodore Commodore

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    Thanks. What I'm mainly concerned with is if any of the two versions (library of TPB) contains more material than the other. The library edition has also a lot (all?) of the covers collected at the end and a bunch of sketches. Perhaps that's the only difference. On the other hand, this doesn't mention the Willow or Riley one-shot in vol. 2, and your link (I'd seen that cover already, but thanks for the spoiler warning; it's appreciated) doesn't list if for vol. 3 either, so that would mean then that they both have to be in vol. 4?

    As for the second one shot included in the library edition vol. 1, I think they mean one-shot as opposed to multi-issue arc, not opposed to regular series issue. So that would make "The Chain" the second one-shot. That confused me at first as well.

    Edited to add: Actually, by that reasoning, the two arcs in vol. 1 are "The Long Way Home" and "No Future for You" and the one-shots are "The Chain" and "Anywhere but Here". "Always Darkest" is perhaps not counted in that at all, since it's just a three-page story. It's in there as well though.
     
  17. Plain Simple

    Plain Simple Commodore Commodore

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    I've contacted Dark Horse asking them what exactly is going to be in the library editions. I'll put the answer here when I get it.
     
  18. Plain Simple

    Plain Simple Commodore Commodore

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    I didn't get any reply from Dark Horse, but I did manage to get a chance to read most of the canon comics. I've now read Angel: ATF (so #1-17), four Spike series (Asylum, Shadow Puppets, ATF, and the 8-issue `ongoing' series), BtVS s8, and even a few issues of BtVS s9 and Angel & Faith.

    Clearly, I'm liking what I'm reading. I'm surprised how easily these comics drew me in.

    I do have some confusion about story elements though. Perhaps we can discuss those here (I'm sure they must have been discussed in other threads as well in the past, but these season-long threads tend to be quite long.) So, spoilers follow below, possibly about all the material I just listed.

    First a small question concerning the transition from Angel: ATF to BtVS s8 for the character of Angel. If I remember correctly the chronologically earliest appearance of Angel in BtVS s8 is in one of the final issues, where we see him come through some portal hitting the Hollywood sign. This does not follow seemlessly from the end of ATF #17, where Angel is starting up Angel Investigations again in L.A. Is this scene in BtVS s8 a continuation from the last 'ongoing' Angel issue, or did I miss some explanation there?

    Then the bigger issue: I am completely confused about the motivations of Angel as Twilight. So here's what I can make out (but I might be completely off):

    -Immediately after hitting the Hollywood sign, Angel is contacted (via a dog) by Twilight, a mystical being who is the personification (or demonification?) of the universe's wish/want/need to conceive a child universe/dimension/whatever.

    -Somehow Twilight convinces Angel that this universe birth is going to happen (Giles also seems convinced of that), because Buffy used her scythe to call/create many slayers. There is no stopping this happening, but for some reason it's going to be very very bad for everyone, unless Angel manages to focus all of Buffy's attention onto one bad guy and then has sex with her? In fact, Angel is convinced that things will be so bad if he doesn't do these things, that he goes as far as killing hundreds of slayers, and presumably other people. Uhm... huh?

    -By doing all this killing, the power of the other Slayers is going back to Buffy (I think that was the reason for her new superpowers, right? of was that contradicted again later?), turning her into superwoman. At the same time, the Twilight consciousness demon thingy is giving Angel superpowers, and so when they have sex, the Twilight universe is born and both of them are transported there.

    -Not sure what the alternative would have been if Angel hadn't done what he did, but it seems that for the people back in our universe things are still not particularly good. Apparently Buffy and Angel crossing over to the Twilight dimension (or perhaps just the birth of the Twilight dimension) ripped open some dimensional rift through which hordes of demons come through (I think they said they were Old Ones? If so, how come they're not as powerful as Illyria? Btw, I would have liked to see her reaction to this demon flood, if they really were Old Ones.). So what would have been the alternative, if Angel had done nothing? The universe would just have died in childbirth? At least now there is a chance of survival? Is that the reason why Angel did what he did (or at least the reason by which Twilight convinced him to do what he did)?

    -Angel's motivations here become extremely muddy. It doesn't seem his actions led to a lot of good, apart from Buffy and him apparently being in happy happy land now. Waaaiiittt a minute. Happy happy land? Where is Angelus? Isn't Angel perfectly happy either during amazing-Buffy-sex or afterwards in Twilight land? Or are Buffy's doubts putting a damper on his happiness? What about Angel's curse?

    -Angel at some point claims he didn't know demons would be flooding earth after the Twilight zone got born. So does that mean he was just so fooled by Twilight, that he was convinced somehow (but how?) that not killing all those people would lead to the end of the earth, but killing them would prevent that and not lead to demons pouring over the land? Angel is not that gullible, is he? Twilight must've had some good 'proof' for his claims, for Angel to just start doing his bidding, long long before Twilight actually possessed him.

    -So yeah, that happens next. Buffy goes back to our universe to help her friends. Angel comes along, and then Twilight is pissed, because apparently he needed them to shape his new shiny dimension. Without them it is just empty or doomed or whatever. So he possesses Angel and tries to steal the Seed of Magic.

    -The Seed, another McGuffin which was conveniently located below Sunnydale all this time, and that Watchers, and vampires, and who not, apparently knew about, but never mentioned. But now suddenly Spike knows all about it and the race for the egg starts.

    -Trying to keep the players straight here. A Twilight-possessed Angel tries to steal the Seed to take it back to his empty Twilight dimension to fill that new world with magic stuff, so that it's not that empty, right? The demons are trying to take the egg, because it also works as a cork holding in apparently more Old Ones. Not so sure why all these Old Ones as so fond of each other, but that's apparently what they want to do. Then The Master (really… come on… couldn't you have left at least one dead guy dead) wants to protect the Seed, because he is raised and controlled by the Seed and apparently the Seed doesn't care much for being taken away for whatever reason. Buffy and the gang also want to protect the Seed, because they don't want more demons coming to earth, but in the end she sees no other option but to destroy it (because Angel!Twilight almost takes it), thereby 'breaking the cork in the bottle' and stopping new magic from coming into the world.

    -Apparently magic can still leave the world, because Twilight disappears, and also no new slayers are called and (according to early season 9) no new demons posses vampires (even though other vampires are killed), so all those slayer and vamp demony bits disappear after their hosts die. Just like the magical souls I suppose.

    This seems more or less to be the story, but like I said, I can't make heads or tails of Angel's motivations, unless we (rather unsatisfactorily) explain it all away by "he was completely fooled by Twilight". But even then, I'd like to know what Twilight made him believe to push him to do so much evil, for what he apparently believed was a good, and unavoidable, cause. Angel wasn't possessed all that time, as far as I could make out.

    Come to think of it... Could the whole Shanshu prophecy and Angel getting visions of him being a force for evil at the end of the world in ATF, play into his motivations somehow? The current status of those things is also quite muddy (or is this something that's addressed in the 'ongoing', possibly non-canon, issues of IDW's Angel? If it is, no spoilers about what they address exactly, please. I might still read those issues at some point.).

     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
  19. Ethros

    Ethros Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wow, sounds like you've read a lot in that space of time :)



    I haven't got time to write a full answer at the moment, but basically Angel appearing out of that portal in Season 8 isn't meant to be right after ATF or anything.
    As for when it does occur, god knows. Thats one of my main gripes about Season 8/9, that there has still been no explanation or anything of how Angel became Twilight *really* (apart from about one page in the Riley one shot where he's talking to Whistler about it)

    It was just like-
    Comic- "Who is Twilight.... it's Angel!"
    Reader- "oh right, so how did that happen?"
    Comic- "erm, anyway..."


    I still say their should have been a mini of the Angel we know in his time in LA, like the end of IDW run, with Connor, Gunn, Illyria etc, and then slowly how he became this masked "supervillain" if you will.
     
  20. Brikar99

    Brikar99 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Do any of these comics mention what happened to the Groosalugg?