Discussion in 'TV & Media' started by Chuck Finley, Aug 6, 2013.
IMO, Season 5 is the best of the series, Season 4 is second.. I hope there are Emmys all around!
I don't think it matters that Walt didn't pull the trigger on Hank. His actions directly caused Hank's death. It's his fault, at least as much as it's Jack's fault. As they say in court, "intent follows the bullet." Those bullets were meant for Jesse. They just wound up in Hank and Gomez. It doesn't matter that the "wrong" people died. It matters that Walt intended for people to die in the first place.
That's a strange concept of accountability.
Hank is dead because he made the same mistake that Walter ever made, which is partnering up with Jesse. It's been a dangerous thing for many.
Jesse's plan of tricking Walt, while cunning, was really foolish. It was basically like cornering a certain type of rabid animal. In most situations, that animal would run away, but when cornered, that animal will fight back. If Jesse hadn't tried to lure Walt out into the desert into an unknown situation, he wouldn't have brought the danger upon them. Walter even gave Hank the warning in the mid-season opener that he shouldn't flirt with the kind of danger that he doesn't understand, and he was right, albeit for the wrong reasons.
Hank should have known better than to go through with Jesse's plan, but every major player in this show is too blinded by their emotion to see their goals achieved. I think Walt definitely deserves a lot of the blame for setting things in motion, but that doesn't make people like Jesse completely blame-free, and even Hank isn't exactly the white knight.
This show is incredible. I started watching it via Netflix, last weekend. I'm already on season 2.
Very true. Jesse wanted to "hurt Walt where he really lived" and tried to change the rules of someone else's game. Last night's events are a direct result of that miscalculation. Had Jesse stuck with Hank's original plan, it likely would have turned out a lot less bloody.
So yes, I agree that Jesse should share in some of the blame for architecting Hank's & Gomez' deaths, no matter how noble the original intent. One would have thought Walt's original intent to be noble (as evidenced by the first-scene flash-back), and we have all seen what that has gotten him.
Bottom line, Jesse just really isn't all that smart - certainly not smart enough to wear the big-boy pants. He overestimated his own abilities and underestimated everyone else's - a recurring theme in this show.
I've noticed that, he went from looking 24 to looking 42 really quickly, I guess it can work in canon, hard drugs and extreme stress can't be good for you.
Not really. It's called "actions have consequences." Remember, this was all sparked by Walt poisoning a child. Jesse finding out about that is what set him off and put him with Hank. Again: it's all traced back to Walt.
Wow, that is some Heisenbergian blame-shifting, there!
Hank and Gomez did get killed by following Jesse's plan, but then he must have expected the two seasoned DEA agents to know how to handle bringing in one guy. His role was to lure Walt to the hiding place of the money, and that was all. You're basically saying Hank had it coming because he didn't take Walt's threat seriously. He absolutely did take it seriously, that's why he and Gomez went into it armed. They just had no idea Walt had a gang of murderous neo-Nazis in his back pocket.
This is totally insane. Walt is the cause of all of this. The deaths of those trying to bring him down aren't the fault of the dead, they're on Walt. None of this would have been necessary without Walt becoming a drug lord in the first place.
No, Hank wasn't handling his investigation by-the-book. Yes, Jesse wanted revenge. That doesn't change the fact that they were motivated to do the right thing, which was to put Walt behind bars. Walt has very rarely been motivated by genuinely ethical concerns or anything approaching altruism. (Please, save the examples, I said "almost never.") He has always been quite calculating, working to preserve his ego, his legacy, and his family, pretty much in that order.
It takes an awful lot of rationalizations and wrangling to pin the deaths of Hank and Gomez on anyone but Walt and Jack. Walt did everything but pull the trigger himself.
Then stay our for this thread or you will be spoiled and it will ruin the viewing experience for you.
That was one of the most dramatic hour i ever saw on TV and i can't imagine the final two episodes even coming close let alone surpass them.
So gut wrenching.. Hank going down like a man, Walt breaking down in terror only to come back to stab Jesse in the back (i always wondered how Jesse would learn of the events surrounding Jane's death), Jr. learning the whole truth, Walt on the phone with Skyler and Marie breaking up when they talk about Hank's body.
I was so floored during all this and this hour just flew by.. brilliant writing, brilliant acting and this episode may get Breaking Bad the best show with the Emmys and Golden Globes next year. I can't see any show come close to this episode.
Just think, If Hank did not call Marie they would have drove off just missing Jack and the gang.
Wow. That was a completely devastating episode.
I knew going into the episode Gomie and Hank were goners, and while it's a pity we didn't actually see Gomie's death, Hank's final moments perfectly defined his character. He knew he was going to die and simply accepted his fate.
And yet, that was just the beginning.
Walt's family is in complete shambles despite his ever last effort to keep it all together. Like others have already said, I thought the tragedy was going to be coupled even further with Walt Jr. accidentally being stabbed trying to defend his mother. But the worst gut-wrenching blow was Walt's spontaneous kidnapping, a moment I fully expected the episode to end on (and was the second episode in a row I expected to end earlier than it did, following last week's episode with Walt ending his phone call with Jack).
Of course, the ending we got, like last week, was even better than that emotional climax. It's better not to have the viewers think Walt has Holly long-term when he ultimately relinquished quickly. Not that that makes up for Walt's heinous act, nor does his anger-filled phone call where he attempts to make Skyler look like the victim in the eyes of the police, but it's good that the writers choose not to mislead us in that direction for very long. Aside from the impending rescue mission (if that's what it truly is), that was probably Walt's final act of goodness (if you can call it that).
I need more Breaking Bad. Right. NOW.
I was thinking if they worked together, but yeah, I agree.
Of course actions have consequences, but people also have free will, they're not just some pawns in a void. Walter wasn't forcing Jesse into taking revenge by poisoning Brock, and he wasn't forcing Hank into starting up his rogue investigation. And Skyler had the choice way back to turn Walt in instead of being complicit. All of these people made their own terrible decisions that led to the shitty situation that is currently going on. They're each responsible for it in their own way if you're going to start talking about what contributes toward bringing things to where they are. Yes, Walt originally sparked the whole thing, but so many people have aided in the whole scheme that with the kind of responsibility that you're talking about you can start throwing blame around like nothing.
No, it's the truth. Walter is certainly not good, and there's no denying that. But let's not pretend that Jesse is some sort of saint or good guy. Jesse fucks up a lot of things. He is a fuck up. Everyone that he's ever partnered with ends up screwed over, hurt, or even dead. Hank is just the latest on that list. Hank messed up by letting his ambition get the best of him and letting Jesse work so close to him. Jesse was unstable, and as soon as the sting went awry, he should have listened to Gomez and just brought him in. I'm surprised Gomez went along with a lot of Hank's crap, to be honest.
These guys weren't in it for justice or "doing the right thing", they were in it for revenge. They were in it because of pride or because their egos were hurt. Jesse spitting in Walt's face, or Hank punching him in the garage showed that it was all too personal at that point. These guys were kinda making their own bed with some of these decisions, and some of that is on them. Just because Walt is a total douche doesn't absolve them of any subsequent douchiness.
Didn't Jesse tell them the whole story? It would seem pertinent that they should know that he has some form of brutal allies...
If Jesse didn't tell Hank about them, then that's just another reason why Jesse is a fuck up.
Well I blame Walt's parents...
Uh, yeah he did. First by being related to him and operating under his nose for so long, then by threatening him in the garage, and finally by blackmailing him with the video.
If Hank had gone directly to the DEA with the circumstantial evidence he had, he would have been immediately taken off the case at best, and suspended at worst. Either way, any chance for advancement he would have had would have been long gone. His career was over no matter what because the drug kingpin they had been searching for turned out to be his brother-in-law and had been operating right under his nose the whole time. So if Hank was going to go down anyway, he needed more concrete evidence than putting two-and-two together with the book. Which is why he kept everything to himself (and later Gomez) until he found some hard evidence, so he could continue working the case, because he was in the best position to bring Walt down. He spelled this out to Marie earlier in the season.
Then Walt threatened him (and by extension Marie) in the garage, which gave Hank further reason for caution. And finally, Walt made the video implicating Hank in the crimes, which made it entirely impossible for Hank to go directly to the DEA without solid evidence that Walt was the kingpin.
Hank could have chosen to go to the DEA at first, but it probably would have meant that Walt got away with it and it definitely would have ruined Hank's career, so it's not like he wasn't backed into a corner by Walt. Then afterward, there's no question that Walt forced his hand with the threat and blackmailing.
Anyway, as far as the episode goes, everything I've wanted to say has already been covered. Just an amazing, heartwrenching episode from start to finish, full of plenty of incidents that would qualify for amazing show finale moments on their own, yet here they're all in one episode and the show's not even over yet. Hank going out with style, Walt's cruelty toward Jesse with the Jane taunt, the knife fight and the kidnapping of the baby, Walt's phone call, Jesse's utter despair at being caught and imprisoned... Just astounding drama.
The blackmail is the only thing there that is any kind of coercion, but Hank was doing things the wrong way well before that.
You say Hank would have been suspended or taken off the case. Good, that's what should have happened! Maybe then he'd still be alive, and maybe then the case might have actually been solved with what evidence he did present. Looking at the way things are going, it doesn't look like there's going to be any legitimate justice that's going to be served up anyways. And I bet a lot of what they had against Walt probably wasn't even admissible because of their methods.
I don't understand this, how would it ruin his career if Walt gets away with it? Like if there isn't good evidence for it, how does that equate to the end of his career? Because it's a bad accusation? The career-ending stuff was always tied in to him being closely related to an actual drug dealer, not just falsely accusing someone of being one.
I think Jesse is not completely innocent in all of this and he has made bad decisions (like working with the police), but Hank was just doing his job. It's not Walt's fault for Hank's death, but Walt shouldn't we working with, you know, Nazis. Jesse did break the number one rule though, you don't involve cops. I think even Mike would be pissed about that. Jesse should have just walked away or gone after Walt himself. Emotion is driving every single character, but we've seen that despite the emotion, Walt has many tricks up his sleeve. I hope we see one more cool chemistry related splosion' or something.
On a side note, I liked how he rolled the barrel all the way to the Indian guy's house, it reminded me of first season antics. I almost hoped/thought the Indian was actually a Salamanca. The first thing I thought of was the turtle with a head on it.
The knife fight was intensely hard to watch. Even the second time.
You don't think Walt threatening Hank in the garage is a form of coercion? Seriously?
Being related to Hank isn't an overt form of coercion on Walt's part (although it's also his fault since he knew going into that line of work could drag his family through the mud), yet it forced Hank's hand nonetheless by putting him in an unwinnable situation. No matter how it went down, his career was ruined. That's why he wanted to collect some hard evidence before it got ruined.
You say "Good, that's what should have happened" in regard to Hank being suspended or taken off the case, but you can't see how that easier for you to say as an outside observer rather than someone who would be directly involved and affected by it? Hank believes that he is best qualified to bring down Walt (and he was probably right about that) and in the best position to collect solid evidence on him. Hank also doesn't want his career (and extended family) to be ruined without taking down the guy who ruined it first.
That's not what I said. I said Hank's career would be ruined simply by reporting to the DEA that his brother-in-law was Heisenberg no matter what. He was never going to get another promotion again. It might have mitigated things a bit if Walt was captured and convicted by the DEA, and maybe years down the line people would forget about Hank's oversight, but he still was never going to advance in his job or be fully trusted by the higher ups again.
What I was saying was that if Hank went straight to the DEA, Walt probably would have gotten away with his crimes, because Hank (the best person to catch Walt in his view) would have been taken off the case, and the lackluster circumstantial evidence he had at that point wouldn't have been enough to take down Walt before he found a way to escape with all the money.
By the way, I'm not saying Hank didn't make any mistakes or do any wrong here, I'm just challenging your claim that he wasn't forced into going rogue by Walt at all. Plainly he was. He could have done things by the book, but voluntarily ruining your own career is hardly not being forced in any way.
I suppose the threat is coercion, but it was a lot more subtle and vague than the blunt DVD. It was nowhere near as direct, and there wasn't anything quantifiable behind it. The DVD was the point where it really got real.
I get what you're saying about the relations forcing Hank's hand and putting him in a no-win situation. But I still think the better choice in that situation would have been the one that was to go to the DEA rather than to go rogue. Or at least, if he was going to go rogue, to not involve Jesse so heavily and to just involve Gomez. He wasn't forced into his vigilante methods, is what I was saying. It doesn't matter if the outcome for his career was the same, he should have picked the option that was safer and ethically right. He was not forced into choosing the specific path that he took, threats or not.
And yeah, of course that's easy to say as an outside observer, but that's what I am. If I was Hank, it's possible I'd do the same thing or worse. That still doesn't mean I'm forced into it or don't have a choice. I am responsible for my own actions, not anybody else. Only in the most strained instances of coercion can people claim that they're not responsible for their actions, and Hank's was not one of them.
This is all just a response to the idea that Walt is directly responsible for Hank's death just as Jack is. I think if you're going to start playing the blame game like that, there's plenty to go around. I'd prefer to say that Walt is responsible, just indirectly, and things snowballed out of his control. He certainly did not wish this upon Hank, but his lack of foresight made it happen, just as Jesse, Hank, and Gomez' lack of foresight got them into a similar bad situation.
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