borg question

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by roguephoenix, Sep 27, 2008.

  1. roguephoenix

    roguephoenix Captain Captain

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    is the primary drive for the borg perfection and efficiency? if so, why do they leave themselves looking like a 5th grade science project? i mean with all that tech, including nano tech, it is much better for them not to look the way they do. it would probably make them less vulnerable as they would be more agile and have less things people can get their hands on and rip off.

    just a thought.
     
  2. JiNX-01

    JiNX-01 Admiral Admiral

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    Perfection is a relative term. They pursue collective perfection by acquiring the knowledge and technology of other species. Once they know everything they'll worry about aesthetics.
     
  3. msbae

    msbae Commodore

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    The Borg were intended to personify the fear of rapidly advancing technology in some people. As such, it is entirely appropriate for them to look like cybernetic monstrosities.
     
  4. Finn

    Finn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^That doesn't agree with the Borg philosophy, from what we've learned from Seven, and the queen.
     
  5. JNG

    JNG Chief of Staff, Starfleet Command Rear Admiral

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    msbae summed it up. Early ideas for the Borg's appearance ranged from insects to an amorphous kind of look inspired by the film The Abyss, but budget considerations and the idea to have the antagonist focus on technology led to their cyber-zombie "look."
     
  6. Jeri

    Jeri Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No one can grab onto the collective, so it's not at risk in that way. Their bodies are, in turn, replaceable and expendable. Perfection, in fact, is disembodiment, according to the queen.
     
  7. roguephoenix

    roguephoenix Captain Captain

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    so why do they still keep the bodies? assimilate the info and discard the body. they could use the bodies as fuel. they could all live as one consciousness within their systems. are drones even necessary with all that tech? can't they just deliver the nanites via raining them on the planet? transporting them in the ships? drones seem more like a liability for the collective as people find ways to get at the collective through drones.
     
  8. Jeri

    Jeri Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ ^ They clearly have things they need to do, since they are always showing drones working when they aren't regenerating.

    I'm not really getting the part where Borg are vulnerable simply because they're not streamlined. Normally, opponents try to disable them with weapons in the same way as other foes.

    The damage enemies can accomplish to the collective through a drone are limited to viruses, which in their deadliest form so far, have not wiped out the collective. The queen will destroy tens of thousands of Borg herself to amputate a malady, so it seems a cost of doing business. And unlike humans, a Borg's memories literally live on as long as there is a collective. Their death has less at stake than for us.
     
  9. roguephoenix

    roguephoenix Captain Captain

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    well with all that tech, the things that the drones are working on can be accomplished by the computers themselves. either you just need to have a program running things or you can use the nanites to self repair whatever is physically wrong. that's why i don't really see a practical use for a drone. what do they do that can't be done by any tech they have? if they need "bodies" they certainly don't need biological ones. they don't even need physical ones.

    as far as being vulnerable, i just meant that those are more things that enemies can get at or target. i've seen instances where ripping out certain "hanging" things on a borg just made it go offline or damaged.

    whether the vulnerability is high or low is not the question. the vulnerability is there. it's a doorway to use. just because it hasn't been exploited to the point where it would destroy the collective doesn't mean it won't. and they have suffered damage through that vulnerability to some degree where it impaired them a bit.

    so, logically and technically, they don't really need drones. any "drone" they might need can just be "constructed" its just a waste of energy trying to keep them. it's like a factory trying to do stuff manually when it's more expensive and more efficient and cost effective machinery is available. could it be that the borg don't even know that they are not doing things the most efficient manner possible? maybe, they are more "humanoid" than they think they are. they are basically altered biological beings. they are trying to elevate themselves but still can't get rid of that part? hmm....
     
  10. Jeri

    Jeri Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ ^ Clearly things cannot be accomplished by just tapping their ruby slippered nanites together and wishing; otherwise they wouldn't be walking around, doing things. What you'd have in that case would be more out of ENT: "Dead Stop," and not a Borg collective. (And nobody ever said that facility wasn't built by humanoids.) The Borg as we have seen them indeed are humanoid; whoever said otherwise? One visit with the queen, and it's all too clear they are quite humanoid.
     
  11. roguephoenix

    roguephoenix Captain Captain

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    i know, but their their tech suggests they don't need biological bodies. that's just what i'm getting at. you can't say that they don't have the tech to build nanotech bodies like replicators, because even the federation were getting to that stage with their nanites. even if not constructing bodies, the nanites are at least capable of doing any menial tasks the drones are doing.

    if they're after advancement and perfection, drones and biological bodies would not, and does not, fit into their goals. so why do they still have them? an analogy would be like if someone is able to see into the past at will but then keeps wondering what he did before as if he had no way of knowing. they're just not using their abilities to their potential therefore they are not efficient. it's a flaw in their logic. the only thing i can think of is that the queen or the collective itself has an unconscious need to keep humanoid bodies. much like the vulcans, though they value logic and unemotional responses, sometimes they can't help but be illogical and emotional because it's still a part of them no matter how much they want to supress it. there's still probably some unconscious "humanity" within the collective (or the queen if she's the collective herself), that even they are not aware of. the primary directive of life - to live.
     
  12. Jeri

    Jeri Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Borg don't seek perfection by extinction of the physical body; even the queen in her disembodied state retains her torso. They seek it by assimilating other cultures; and their creativity is also arrived at through this method. It is an excellent approach, since mongrels are stronger than inbred animals. They have the diversity to avoid inbreeding pitfalls.

    If the Borg suddenly decided just to go with what they have and replicate current technology, they would eventually encounter problems of inbreeding and outdating. In addition, since they do use the assimilation approach, it is required that they maintain bodies similar to the ones they assimilate, in order to both do the work of assimilation and continue on in those bodies.
     
  13. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The evidence does seem to suggest that the Borg seek perfection of the cybernetically augmented humanoid form, rather than some other sort of perfection. Certainly it should be acknowledged that "perfection" as such is a rather arbitrary and ill-defined goal (Stanislaw Lem had a fun chapter on this in Cyberiad), and the Borg are free to choose from an endless selection of perfections...

    When did the Queen consider disembodiment to be perfection?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  14. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Queen stated in 'Unimatrix zero' that it's a shame one of the drones is not alive to experience disembodiment as it's the ultimate form (or one of the greatest aspects) of perfection.

    Still, the Borg wouldn't exactly be paying attention to aesthetics.

    And when they encountered species 8472, the Borg wanted to assimilate them more than anything as they presented a peak of biological and technological evolution.
    The Borg for example focused more on the cybernetic aspect ... 8472 used biological aspects on which they base/advance their tech.
    8472 for example is more advanced/powerful than the Borg biologically and technologically and they are still in their biological bodies.
     
  15. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Thanks!

    One might argue that the Queen has her own ideas about perfection that aren't exactly to the Collective's liking. That is, if one subscribed to the theory that the Queen is a lifeform subsisting on the Collective but separate of it - either an outside intruder or something that emerged out of the Collective once.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  16. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...On rewatching "Unimatrix Zero", it seems to me that when the Queen is speaking of "disembodiment", she is actually referring to the mirror image of decapitation. That is, for her, the ultimate bliss is to exist as a head without a body!

    True, she also seems to exist as noncorporeal software, manifesting at will wherever the Collective needs her. But the particular scene in the episode specifically involves her talking to a severed head...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. roguephoenix

    roguephoenix Captain Captain

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    ok. so borg seek perfection by augmenting biology with technology. isn't the logic of that argument flawed by default?

    however, if we bypass that flaw for a sec and accept it, aren't their "improvements" impairing other functions of the biological being? if you're going to improve something, won't you keep aspects that are good and augment those? they have made the biological body sluggish and inneficient. not to mention they've made themselves quite hideous. i understand that they are probably not as concerned with physical perfection (though that's arguable) rather than functional perfection (though clearly they have not done so), but if you have that much in the way of technology, why would you need tubes, akward appendage replacements, etc. all that can be done through nanotech (which they have) without compromising the function of the body. in fact if they kept the basic biological design, they would be a lot more... perfect as they would have been able to keep the full functionality of the biological body, except with huge technological improvements. not only that but their nanotech improvements would be a lot more efficient and adaptable. as it stands, their "improvements" hinder certain functions of the biological body. making all their "improvements' streamlined, compact, and less disruptive of the biological body's design IS what would an upward improvement. what they are currently doing is more of a diagonal improvement. they are augmenting the body to improve yet losing functionality. sure, one might say that they are not concerned with those types of functions, but if you step back and look at them with their bodies fully functioning as designed except highly improved, they would be quite unstoppable.

    think of it as making the 6 million dollar man rather than making a cyberman (dr who).

    also, if they regard the biological body quite important, you'd think they'd employ genetic engineering. that too is technology. genetically engineered techonologically improved beings, only the Q would be able to stop them... if they could even...
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2008
  18. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's just the ambiguous nature of "improvement" at work here, folks.

    Humans are supposedly "advanced" despite having lost (or failing to have gained) such valuable things as high running speed (instead we just have endurance almost unparalleled in nature), protective skin (ours is merely very good at sweating), sharp eyes (ours are merely versatile), or fangs or claws of great reach and potency (we only have our brains).

    The Borg Drones have many advantages in the Trek environment. A single individual can hack a starship, a small gaggle can assimilate it, a group can probably outprocess a starship computer. An individual has access to the expertise and skills of tens of thousands of civilizations. That's meaningful perfection, for the Trek environment; the Drone could be essentially sessile and still outshine the leanest and meanest examples of physical perfection, the most elegant predators, the least conspicuous skulkers, the fastest runners, the least shakeable defenders.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. roguephoenix

    roguephoenix Captain Captain

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    if so, they don't show it. they seem more like bumbling, slow, vulnerable, unecessary things rather than important part of the machine that is the borg.
     
  20. MetalPants

    MetalPants Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    All the borg we've ever seen were assimilated humanoids. It wouldn't be a far leap to guess that the original borg species was humanoid. So perhaps it is a racial memory that keeps the borg in their physical bodies, instead of going to the nanite route.