Borg Origin

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by Farrens, Aug 28, 2009.

  1. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    Thanks for pointing that out as I hadn't read that before. It has the right flavor for sure. I don't think any species would set out to turn themselves into cyborgs on purpose. It is a scenario used by others, the above mentioned Ellison short story, and even Frank Herbert wrote a thinking machine revelation as back story to "Dune."

    I think there has been more written now, but I lost interest in "Dune" after the third book.

    Cyborgs are interesting because you can use them both ways as heroic beings or villainous ones, although either way they are tragic characters.

    The challenge isn’t to come up with a beginning for the Borg, but to be able to make your theory work with Trek canon, and that’s where I think “Destiny” falls short. I don’t think the Borg could have made Kathryn Janeway a Queen, they could have assimilated her, they could have killed her, but they could not make her a Queen. From “First Contact” we find out that the Queen wanted Picard as a companion, but to do so he must give himself freely, it’s not a great jump to assume that Queens have to give themselves freely too.

    Brit
     
  2. JB2005

    JB2005 Commodore Commodore

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    ^ Yes it is.

    The Queen was not an independent organism, merely the embodiment of the collective.

    If the Borg are a Computer System, the Queen is a monitor-with-speakers. All they do is allow people to see and respond to the internal workings of the thing.

    The Borg Collective is not an insect colony :)
     
  3. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    The Queen is the one individual within the Collective, one only has to watch her appearances. In fact much as I disagree with the "Destiny/Before Dishonor" take of the Borg, they do acknowledge the Collective's need for a Queen.

    You can't have it both ways.

    Brit
     
  4. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think it in a way still is by the way they operate and interact. It's very much like a Bee colony. Like Killer Bee's are with the super sensitive frequency. You kill one and the entire hive knows and come after you.

    I'm not sure I'd call her an individual, Brit but more like "the brain". She's dependent yet independent from the rest of the body/collective.
     
  5. JB2005

    JB2005 Commodore Commodore

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    ^ ah but that's impossible. You can't have "an individual" within "a collective"

    And the queen wasn't an individual in destiny, she was merely a vessel for the collective (be it the Caeliar or the Cube)
     
  6. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Right!

    She needs them to exist and they need her to organize them.
     
  7. JB2005

    JB2005 Commodore Commodore

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    ^ Exactly. She's like a processor in a computer. Without the processor the computer wouldn't run, but the processor doesn't run independantly of the computer.

    Sorry I'll stop making analogies, but I need to make sure I'm understanding it and it helps me!
     
  8. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    :lol:

    That's ok, I still agree.
     
  9. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    "Destiny" isn't canon. Go back and look at "First Contact", especially "First Contact". You could look at the other three appearances in Voyager, which pretty much back up "First Contact".

    If the Queen is merely a vessel, then you don't need her. A mechanical processor would serve. And the answer to that scenario is no Queen, but there is a Queen, the Borg value perfection, there has to be a perfect necessity for her. She is an individual, she uses words like I and mine.

    "I myself came from species 125" or "I was just about your age when I was assimilated." Sounds pretty individual to me.

    I challenge you to put your theory to the test. Write fic but stick with canon when you do. You'll figure out pretty quickly what works and what doesn't.

    Brit
     
  10. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    She also said "I am the Borg, I am the one who is many."
    Which means she is the entire Collective and the Collective is her. So she isn't an individual just like a Bee Queen can't survive without the hive. They all work together as one. A machinical processor goes against the Borg concept of combining the organic with the inorganic. " I came from species 125." just means the Queen is the only one that remembers who she is, probably because she is the first. Just like a Bee Queen is the first and only to start a hive.
     
  11. JB2005

    JB2005 Commodore Commodore

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    ^ Bear in mind that this was an experience within Unimatrix Zero...so she could have regained memories of her assimilation, but her borg programming crushed/reformed them...
     
  12. Agent Richard07

    Agent Richard07 Admiral Admiral

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    A few years ago, I found a script that details the origin of the Borg. My understanding is that it's an actual script that was never shot. It starts off with the Voyager encountering a space capsule with an astronaut inside in suspended animation. When he's brought to sickbay, Seven of Nine recognizes him as a member of Species 001. Here it is...

    "Origin of the Species"
     
  13. Bluesteel

    Bluesteel Commander Red Shirt

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    I like to think that the Borg started out has cybernetic implants. People were given in it and one of them was a cute and innocent little girl who lost half of her body due to a tragic accident. She's given implants. How ever the nanoprobes from the implants malfunction Leukimia style and keep on multiplying. Eventually she turns into a Borg Drone. Assimilates the doctor and the other patients.


    Then those guys go berserk and assimilate the entire society.
     
  14. Brit

    Brit Captain Captain

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    I hate to tell you this but a Queen Bee may not be able to survive without the Hive, but she is still an individual. Do you not believe people in wheelchairs are individuals?

    It has to do with her physiology, the Borg Queen had almost no part of her body left, the Queen Bee is dependent on the hive to feed and shelter her that has nothing to do with individuality.

    Again, take your theory and then fit it up against, "First Contact", "Dark Frontier," "Unimatrix Zero," and "Endgame" it won't take you very long to see what works and what doesn't. I did it.

    Brit
     
  15. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    First off, I was hoping this could remain pleasant........unfortunately.:rolleyes:

    "Do you not believe people in wheelchairs are individuals?"

    What kinda condescending stupidity is that, seriously?
    The Borg couldn't be all one if she were any individual, that would be a contradiction. As someone else pointed out, she just another component in a computer working with it but not separate from it.

    How would I have come up with the idea that the Queen works like a brain, dependent yet independent in the Collective if I hadn't thought about the same things you did?

    However theories are just unproven ideas, nobody here is more right or more wrong than anyone else. I hate to tell you that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2009
  16. Tallis Rhul

    Tallis Rhul Commander Red Shirt

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    That script is kinda cool to be honest, and had they chosen to air it as the origin I wouldn't have objected.

    I just wish they'd actually clear this one up... being mysterious is great, but there are so many half-official theories out there it's driving me crazy! :borg:
     
  17. kes7

    kes7 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I like the multiple theories floating around! It makes them more mysterious. Doesn't anybody just like a good mystery anymore? I still feel like knowing the origin of the Borg with canon-approved certainty would spoil the Borg fun. Am I alone in this?

    :borg::borg::borg::borg:
     
  18. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, not at all.
    I think some characters, especially villains work better when there is some mystery left to them. I don't really need an explaination on why they're evil, I just accept they are.
     
  19. Frazzled

    Frazzled Commander Red Shirt

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    I think maybe this is the reason, other than the Janeway thing, that I don't like the direction trek lit has taken. I wanted Seven to stay part Borg, I wanted the Borg to remain mysterious bad guys, not to wipe out half the federation then disappear altogether and be explained in the process :(
     
  20. Frazzled

    Frazzled Commander Red Shirt

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    Hmmmm - yeah, I guess she has to be able to uniquely-for-a-Borg remember and rationalise where she came from, whilst remaining connected to the hive mind and still 'I am the Borg..the one who is many'.

    A fabulous paradox, that I feel doesn't need explaining, it just 'is', and IMHO works very well in First Contact. I always rejected BD anyway :angryrazz: