Borg or Dominion??

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by pimp, Aug 19, 2008.

  1. jolau

    jolau Captain Captain

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    What about "Endgame?" We saw the Borg lose one of thier transwarp hubs and the destruction of Unimatrix One complex at least from the Borg Queen assimilating Admiral Janeway's neurolytic pathogen.
     
  2. Cyke101

    Cyke101 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    We're not sure what the effect of the destruction of Unimatrix One had on the Borg anyway, so it's kind of moot. That's like asking what the state of the Dominion as a whole was after their defeat in the AQ.

    But regarding transwarp, we've seen Borg ships travel at transwarp independently. Lore's ship created its own conduits, and Seven (unsuccessfully) tried to install transwarp drive onto Voyager several times, showing that Borg don't necessarily need hubs. In addition to that, Voyager used a Borg Sphere's transwarp drive to cut their trip short. The cube from Q Who might have had transwarp, as the cube reached Federation space a full year faster than anyone expected in Best of Both Worlds, well after the Enterprise saw a cube outrun their fastest speeds.

    I'm guessing that while transwarp itself is fast, the transwarp hubs make travel much more efficient and speedy (travelling anywhere in the galaxy in mere minutes) than standard transwarp, which could take any amount of time. And, again, the slowest transwarp speeds are still several times faster than warp.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2008
  3. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I haven't seen that episode in a long time but what about that Sphere that pursued Voyager into the transwarp conduit, didn't it avoid the pathogen?

    Those conduits confused me when I saw them in Endgame. If they had one that exited in or just outside the Sol system why didn't they send the Borg Cube through there instead? Why give Starfleet days of advanced warning for them to assembly a fleet to intercept the vessel? Starfleet could only field a dozen ships in Endgame to face the Borg threat. A Borg cube would have cut through like a hot knife through butter and before anyone can really do anything everyone would be doing assimilation two-step on Earth.

    Add to the fact that Starfleet then just let Voyager approach Earth. If I just saw a ship exit from an exploding Borg vessel I'd have ordered the ship to power down, boarded her and taken the ship and crew into quarantine. But this is TV, you need to have a nice happy ending with Voyager nearing Earth.
     
  4. FordSVT

    FordSVT Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I always thought this idea was stupid and predicated on the belief that the Borg were completely retarded.

    From what I remember, the shape was so complicated that the Borg would have a really difficult time figuring it out, and would dedicate all of the collective's resources to figuring it out, rendering them neutralized?

    WTF? This is worse than Kirk talking a computer to death with a logic loop. :rolleyes:

    Correct me if I'm wrong or if there are details I'm not remembering that would make this idea more viable.
     
  5. Sisko4Life

    Sisko4Life Commander Red Shirt

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    The pathogen disrupted the entire collective, not necessarily destroy it (that was left open for interpretation for a reason).



    That particular sphere was one of the last vessels the Borg Queen "heard" she she ordered pursuit.

    Well, LaForge calculated a transwarp conduit was 25+ times the maximum speed of a Galaxy-Class starship, which is Warp 9.6 or ~3,000c or something like that. So the Borg vessels presumably would travel at ~75,000c. However, in Dark Frontier the Delta Flyer had to drop out of warp immediately when it was 200 light years out which suggests mind-boggling speeds. The Quantum Slipstream Drive from Hope and Fear is supposed to be nearly identical to transwarp technology (or could be faster, hence why they wanted to assimilate it) is listed at as fast 1.6 million times the speed of light. Anyway, the point of the hubs would be so that vessels wouldnt continuously burn their coils out since they aren't infinite (Voyager only got 20,000 light years from one).

    Uh, I only recall the Endgame virus, which disabled the collective. The one from Unimatrix Zero also disrupted the specific drones with the defect and wasn't really meant to destroy the Collective (I doubt Voyager's doctor figured out the means to do that yet). But yeah that is 2/2 so I don't see how it fails. The Borg Queen's death in ST:FC has nothing to do with the collective. She died, not carried a pathogen to infect the collective.

    Are you kidding me? The Dominion never fought on their own turf! For all we know, their first 2 waves of ships were all that attempted to go to the AQ, the first one was the convoys to Cardassia to fortify it and the 2nd wiped out by the Prophets. The Dominion was fine after the war. The Female Shapeshifter was just afraid that the allies would attack and destroy the Great Link since they all knew where it was.

    Bottom line is, Dominion infiltrates the Borg collective network. Plants a genetically engineered Borg slaughtering virus and its game over. The Borg would have to commit thousands of ships and overwhelm the Dominion before this simple act is committed or they lose.
     
  6. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Or Dominion infiltrates the Borg collective network. Plants a genetically engineered Borg slaughtering virus and the Borg adapt. Dominion populous starts learning the words to "Hail, the assimilating Collective!"
     
  7. Cyke101

    Cyke101 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There are other factors to think about as well in regards to the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant. We had already seen rebellious Jem Ha'Dar in the AQ. The Alpha Quadrant powers were just about the only force to ever go against the Dominion and win a major war in all of its existence. It doesn't matter that the Dominion had reduced numbers, a defeat is a defeat. From a political standpoint, that can definitely send ripples throughout Dominion space. Additionally, since there's more to the Dominion than just the Jem Ha'Dar or the Vorta who are genetically engineered to revere the Founders as Gods; all the races that the Dominion had conquered over the years could gain a bit of inspiration.

    Or, if we're going down the more diplomatic route, it's more than possible that the AQ powers send representatives over, which could in the end, make the Dominion less militaristic than ever (a hopeful theory, but a theory nonetheless). Add to that that Odo is part of the Link now, an equal voice with the others. He himself is a very good and honorable man, who could do to the Dominion what Mirror Spock did to the Terran Empire and calm them down.

    It's all conjecture for sure, but that also means that if we're talking about the current state of the Dominion, anything is up in the air and all conjecture. I'd have to argue that if we're going to take one side at the height of their power, it's only fair that we apply the same to the other. (Besides, according to Mike Okuda, the virus in Endgame probably didn't go very far. Since we didn't see this said on screen but rather said by a very long-serving Trek veteran, you can take that comment however you want)
     
  8. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ We saw rebellious Jem'Hadar in the Gamma Quadrant too. There was the First that killed his commanding Vorta (Weyoun), something another Jem'Hadar put down to a lack of discipline. Then the Jem'Hadar that was free of the white and took his men to free them from the white. Plus the Karemma were willing to defy the Dominion and trade with the Federation. The Dominion does seem to be very delicately balanced. What psychological effects would the loss in the Alpha Quadrant have on the Jem'Hadar and Vorta?
     
  9. Marie1

    Marie1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, a lot of the planets in the Dominion are forced to be in it, so they fight from time to time and have to be put down. But S4L brought up an interesting point... and one of my fav DS9 episodes. The Jem'hadar are very good at using bladed weapons, so much so that it would probably be easy for them to hack away at Borg. Or stand at a distance and throw knives. Or shroud and take them out... And the Borg need humanoids etc. to increase their numbers, the Jem'hadar can be hatched in a matter of days, and there are already millions of them... so I'm guessing the Dominion can recoup. faster. I'd take a Jem'hadar over a borg any day... ick.
     
  10. Marie1

    Marie1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Did the Dominion really defeat the AQ? Without the fleet from the WH, they still could have obliterated the AQ attack force with what they had... What'd they say, at least 40% of the remaining AQ ships- Victory would taste as bitter as defeat?
     
  11. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    A Borg can assimilate a person in a matter of minutes.

    The projected losses for the fleet for the battle in orbit of Cardassia was 40% not the total remaining forces in the AQ.
     
  12. Sisko4Life

    Sisko4Life Commander Red Shirt

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    Too bad the Dominion only got... 6 convoys into the Alpha Quadrant for the entire war....
     
  13. Marie1

    Marie1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    LOL- what if the tubes the borg nanites travel through snapped off when they hit the Jemmie neck scales... Nevermind the Kartakin blade the Jem'Hadar decapitated the Borg with... LOL!!
     
  14. 2 of 10

    2 of 10 Captain Captain

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    The BORG by far, they had their transwarp hub, they could be anywhere in the Galaxy within seconds. The only defense the Dominion could have would be The Founders/Shapeshifters infiltrating a Cube and doing damage that way. This is no small treat, however, in the long run. I believe that the BORG would overcome the Dominion. Just look what happened at WOLF-359.

    At times they have almost been defeated by species 8472 with Voyagers help, however, the BORG are a very resilient foe, espically with the Queen seeing and hearing all within the collective. And having the ability to respond in seconds to any threat anywhere within the collective is a pretty compelling argument for the total BORG victory.

    The Founders better just stay put in the Omarion Nebula with the Vorta and Jem-Hadar and hope the the BORG never pay them a visit...

    Resistance is Futile
     
  15. Marie1

    Marie1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Jem'Hadar are adults in about 3 days- to increase their numbers, the Borg need to be able to find people and assimilate them- and hope that works.

    The Jem'Hadar were not to be poisoned- the White was. Mess the White's chemistry (ie randomly changing the chemical compound)- and then they don't have the necessary isogenic enzyme they need to survive- they go into withdrawl and die. Its not the same as giving someone cyanide. It would even take time to work- so you could send those soldiers against your enemies, and in their rage from withdrawl they'd be quite nasty..

    The Founders can't have a "cell structure" per se to assimilate, or else how could they turn into smoke/fog and fire? They can- so if being assimilated, they could do that- or turn into a rock... etc.

    All they would need to ram a Borg cube is one ship- on auto pilot, or with one pilot... and pack the cargo hold full of some sort of explosive... BOOM! No more Cube.

    And as mentioned, Jem'Hadar shroud, and are good with bladed weapons, and are far more agile than the Borg.

    Not that I'd mind of some Vorta were taken out... terrible, nasty things... but they really should kill themselves first- I suppose most of them know too much.
     
  16. Luminus

    Luminus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Like the Borg, I'm resurrecting this. The Borg win, as seen here and here.

    These guys are like roaches. There simply is no defeat. Just move to another galaxy.
     
  17. Marie1

    Marie1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And the Jem'hadar are reptile roaches on steroids... :D
     
  18. Luminus

    Luminus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^So, NY roaches, then. ;)
     
  19. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The Borg would ultimately win. They have a huge number of large, nearly invulnerable cubes.

    All that Voyager junk aside, no ordinary military power has figured out how to beat one cube easily, let alone a fleet of them.

    as for the Founders, based on TNG, if the Borg can't assimilate it, they will eradicate it, or claim it is obsolete like they did Data.

    They would either wipe out the Founders, or capture one and try to find out how they work. They could easily find out their home world by assimilating the right Vorta.

    On the other hand, since the crew of Voyager knows how to infiltrate the Borg, avoid being assimilated, steal technology from them, face down their queen, and destroy an entire Borg complex, anything is possible. :p
     
  20. Mr_Homn

    Mr_Homn Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well in First Contact they all just fired on the same spot and that did the trick, apparently.

    Of course, First Contact is retarded, like all the TNG movies.
     

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