Borg or Dominion??

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by pimp, Aug 19, 2008.

  1. Rush Limborg

    Rush Limborg Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Location:
    The EIB Network
    I remember something that Worf said in "Best of Both Worlds".

    "The Borg have neither honor nor courage. That...is our greatest advantage."

    Many a DS9 episode has established that Jem'Hadar have both honor and courage. I feel confident that they would put that advantage to good use.

    Just my $0.02.
     
  2. Apogeal Alpha01

    Apogeal Alpha01 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Location:
    SoCal
    Just to say that when you're at war, if you've got nothing else in terms of obvious advantage, you better stoke your own psyche. The Klingons have that warrior spirit.
     
  3. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2001
    Location:
    Australia
    We also don't know that it would not have worked either. Given that they were planning to deploy it as a weapon they must have had some confidence that it would have worked.

    We do know that in one potential timeline the Federation did create some sort of virus that is very effective against the Borg within 20 years of Nemesis.
     
  4. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Red Squad had confidence that their attack on the Dominion warship would destroy it. We saw how well that worked out...

    I grant that the virus _may_ have worked. Or it may have done absolutely nothing. But to claim it _would_ have worked is more than a little facetious.
     
  5. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2001
    Location:
    Australia
    ^ I don't disagree with you. You can't know if a weapon will work until you use it for its intended purpose.
     
  6. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Yay, we have non-disagreement. :)
     
  7. Marie1

    Marie1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2008
    Location:
    Alpha Centauri
    Realistically I agree that the novels aren't canon, so their addition in novels like this probably won't make or break anything. But the novels are written and edited by people who are *really* into Trek, at least in this case, using ST references works and the series extensively. And the careful and detailed account made me want to throw it in there... Plus the Jem'Hadar are my absolute fav. ST species... and maybe the Horta. I really think the Dominion would win, esp since, as mentioned, they have rarely seen warships, and the new one as seen in "The Valient" and their production of such things is ususally 100% capacity, at least when necessary. It takes a couple weeks to get new Jemmies, it takes 20 years to get new humans. :P
     
  8. Sisko4Life

    Sisko4Life Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    The main argument in the thread is the fact that the Borg can assimilate and increase their numbers exponentially would lead to their victory. I personally think the Jem'Hadar are just too ruthless for the absent-minded drones. Not to mention, if they don't come in firing hand disruptors they just shroud or stab you with their sword. Plus I remember a Jem'Hadar breaking a Cardassian's spine with his knee in the fight in "behind the lines" hahahahahahaha.
     
  9. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2001
    Location:
    Australia
    ^ Another big advantage the Borg have is transwarp. It means the Borg can reach them but the Dominion can't strike back at the Borg. The Dominion can't impede the Borg's ndustrial capacity if it can't strike at shipyards, command centres, dilithium production centres. The Borg on the other hand can hit Dominion shipyards and more importantly they can hit KW production facilities. You mess with that and the Dominion is in real trouble.

    That reminds me, in DS9 we see Sisko and co go after the main KW production place and destroy but we never see any consequences of this, which I found a bit disappointing.
     
  10. Ro_Laren

    Ro_Laren Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2004
    Location:
    The Badlands
    Scary!

    I've never thought about a Borg v. Dominion scenario. But doesn't it just seem like the Borg have enough ships that they can just simultaneously swoop in and destroy every Dominion cloning facility at one time? Of course that is assuming they knew where they were all located. But, all it takes it assimilating the right Vorta for that info.
     
  11. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Or pretty good sensor technology (which is superior to most 'regular' species in Trek ... incl. Dominion)
     
  12. Damask

    Damask Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Likewise the Founders could create a Vorta, give it wrong information, make it get captured by the Borg, wait for the Borg ships to show up and detonate the closet star.

    Though given the apparent resources of the Borg I've always wondered why they always insisted on the one Cube at a time approach for the Federation.
     
  13. Sisko4Life

    Sisko4Life Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Since the founders are experts at genetic engineering, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be too difficult to just make the Jem'Hadar and Vorta immune to assimilation if they aren't already. If the doctor from Voyager could do the trick, im sure the Founders could do the same for their DNA. I mean they made "adjustments" to the Jem'Hadar to fight in the Alpha Quadrant, etc. All it would take is a simple resequence and the Borg lose that advantage instantly.
     
  14. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    The Doctor never made humans impervious to assimilation.
    On the contrary, what he did was conjure up a neural suppressant which lasted temporarily (even less for Tuvok) that prevented the away team consciences from being slaved up by the collective ... their bodies on the other hand were still assimilated.
    It was a temporary measure that would eventually wore off (it should have wore off faster though).

    The Founders wouldn't be able to make the Jem'Hadaar impervious to assimilation.
    Temporarily it might do the trick to alter their DNA, however, the Borg would find a way around it on their own eventually because the nanpoprobes adapt and rewrite the DNA.
     
  15. Sisko4Life

    Sisko4Life Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Which is exactly why they steamrolled Species 8472... oh wait, they couldn't be assimilated which meant the Borg couldn't adapt and were on the verge of being exterminated if Voyager hadn't given them a hand.
     
  16. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Irrelevant.
    Species 8472 was from a different dimension which was also highly evolved/resistant in not just biological, but technological aspects.
    None of the Milky Way species would be able to compare to 8472.
    Maybe the Voth from 'Distant Origin' episode would be able to come a bit closer in technological areas ... but biological ... possible but unlikely.

    The Founders technology is practically the same as the Federations.
    Their genetic manipulation tech is probably also on the level of the Feds, but the main difference is, the Founders USE it to their advantage for creation of super-soldiers while the Feds do not.
    The Founders would probably rank as 'amateurs' when compared to 8472 in genetic manipulation technologies.

    One other thing ... yes the Borg were in a losing battle, BUT we don't know if they would have lost for certain.
    There is a possibility they would be able to adapt on their own (at least to the weapons partially) given enough time or just as the end grew near.
    8472 is essentially what the Federation was to the Borg when they first encountered them ... only much more technologically/biologically developed with a higher resistance quotient when it comes to assimilation.
    Give it time and the Borg will find a way around that.
     
  17. Sisko4Life

    Sisko4Life Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Dominion technology is superior to Federation technology and is very different. That was evident in the Dominion War and numerous episodes where Dominion soldiers couldn't repair Federation technology ("One Little Ship") and the Feds couldn't understand Dominion technology prior to "The Ship."

    Where is it stated that Species 8472 are experts in genetic manipulation?

    It was explicity said on screen by B'Elanna "What the Borg cannot assimiliate they cannot understand" when the crew was analyzing how they were getting steamrolled so easily. The war had been going on for 5 months, not 5 days, or 5 hours.. and the Borg had no answer to it. Memory Alpha explicitly states:

    "Moreover, since the Borg learned about different species solely by means of assimilation; they were unable to understand or adapt to Species 8472's technology."

    If the Founders engineered the Vorta to be immune to all forms of toxins, surely they can engineer them to eradicate all foreign substances (which is toxins, correct?) if they aren't already immune, rendering Borg nanoprobes useless. In a head on conflict, which is what this thread is asking the borg lose... Why?

    1. What they can't assimilate, they can't understand, adapt to, or analyze.
    2. Jem'Hadar are genetically engineered. They can be modified to be immune to assimilation, but I'm quite sure that they are already. Why would the Founders create a species that can get "sick (meaning invaded by foreign bodies because thats what sickness is)?" They don't sleep, they don't regenerate, they don't eat... so why would they be in danger of assimilation?
    3. Changeling infiltration.... forgot about that? Changeling poses as a drone and does what it has to do.
    4. The Collective is one mind. A single virus will affect the entire species. Remember that GENETICALLY ENGINEERED Teplan Blight that was modified to ONLY affect the Teplans? Yeah, they are mediocre at genetic engineering...
    5. Uh... Jem'Hadar shroud. All of them.
    6. Jem'Hadar don't have to use phasers like the other weak humaniods. They have swords and are several times stronger than humans.
    7. Jem'Hadar are grown in hatcheries, Borg need to assimilate to grow, otherwise their stuck in maturation champers. Jem'Hadar take 3 days to mature, Borg drones take about 25 days(reference: "Drone").
    8. The Dominion build ships faster than any known species.
    9. Prepare for ramming speed.
    Yeah so I'm definately favoring the Dominion in a head to head duel to the death.
     
  18. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2001
    Location:
    Australia
    Species 8472s ships were bio-tech, indicating that they have a fairly advanced form of technology in that area. Plus their ships could not be assimilated either, which hindered the Borg as well.

    The Vorta are immune to most forms of toxins, not all. Still that's different from having tiny little robots injected directly into your blood stream.

    The Borg don't need to assimilate individuals to learn what they need to know. They can still assimilate the Dominion's technology from capturing ships, stations, planets, anywhere where there is a computer system they can interface with. All it needs is a Borg cube to run across a Jem'Hadar attack ship, catch it in a tractor beam and blow up its life support or cut the hull open...then the Jem'Hadar are dead and they have a nice little ship to have a look at. Plus there is the old fashion, let's study the corpse method.

    Assuming that the Founders could make the Jem'Hadar and Vorta immune to assimilation, which I think is an extremely tough ask, that doesn't mean they would win.

    They can also the Federation, Klingon, Romulans or Cardassians and assimilate the knowledge on Dominion tactics through them. If they are really in the need to understand the Dominion that is.

    Plus I remember Damar had a plan to poison the KW to kill the Jem'Hadar. So they they suggests they could be poisoned as Damar's plan was to kill the Jem'Hadar instantly before they went crazy from lack of white. The Jem'Hadar didn't take too lightly to that suggestion either, so maybe it was possible or perhaps they were just pissed that their ally was thinking of ways to kill them.

    Though Weyoun didn't seem to concerned about the plan. Either he already knew of and approved of the plan or maybe he thought it wouldn't work for whatever reason.

    On the chance they could not assimilate the Jem'Hadar or Vorta, then they can just kill them. Wage a standard war, transwarp in and destroy KW plants, breeding centres, shipyards. The Dominion also have no way to strike back and damage the Borg's industrial might.

    The Borg are a hive mind, a Changeling could not just walk in and say, "Hi, I'm 23 or 28. I'm a Borg, what are your weaknesses?" The Borg would find it strange that they weren't part of the collective. Plus despite this ability it they still lost the Dominion War.

    The Feds used blood screening and phaser sweeps to detect Changelings...Borg could do the same or have funky Borg methods. I wonder if their eye device that could disrupt holograms could do the same to a Changeling?

    And it took Bashir all of 2 weeks to make the next generation immune to the disease.

    Though I do think a magic anti-Borg virus is the only way the Dominion could beat the Borg. The question as was brought up above is would any theorised virus work in practice? We don't know.

    Borg have better sensors, they might be able to detect Jem'Hadar even when shrouded. Once they do unshroud they would be open to attack as any other species.

    Stronger then humans doesn't seem to mean much in Star Trek...I seen Sisko beat several Jem'Hadar and Klingons in hand to hand combat. Plus for the most part we've seen that the Jem'Hadar use energy weapons more then bladed weapons in combat.

    Klingons are stronger then Humans and so are Vulcans but the Borg seem to have no problem with assimilating members of those species.

    They can breed Jem'Hadar quickly. The Borg would then target these facilities and try to destroy them to disrupt their supply, plus attack KW plants. On the other hand, the Dominion can only strike at Borg planets and ships in their immediate area. The Borg's vast Delta quadrant empire would be untouched.

    Plus it takes minutes/hours to assimilate a fully grown humanoid. The Borg can top up on drones at the Wadi homeworld, or Karemma, or Dosi. Plenty of races out there to supply the grunts.

    We have no idea how fast the Borg can build ships. So we don't know how they compare. Borg can once again attack shipyards and disrupt the supply of warships, Dominion cannot do the same to the Borg.

    Ramming is a great tactic against the Feds and those people because it carries an extra psychological factor, one that would be lost on the Borg. Then it comes down to how many ships it takes to destroy a cube by ramming and whether or not the Dominion can withstand losses it would incur in the ramming and the number of ships lost to Borg weapons before they get close enough to ram.

    Given transwarp, Borg ships could also outrun Dominion fleets, making it easier to avoid engagements when necessary.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2008
  19. Sisko4Life

    Sisko4Life Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    People put way too much weight on the Dominion's strength in the loss of the war. They lost because the Prophets prevented any reinforcements from coming through the wormhole. The first wave was supposed to be enough to wipe out the entire Alpha Quadrant (with the help of the Cardies). For all we know, the Dominion probably had thousands of vessels waiting after that wave because their territory is so vast.

    But the Borg's weakness to some sort of pathogen affecting the entire collective is so gaping that's basically the win right there. And the Dominion don't hesitate to use biological warfare. Hell, they use whatever means necessary.

    I do assume that the Borg ARE aware of the Dominion because they are such a large power in the galaxy. The transwarp networks extend to all quadrants so I'm sure they've come accross them. Maybe that should say something...
     
  20. Apogeal Alpha01

    Apogeal Alpha01 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Location:
    SoCal
    I think we've seen the Borg attacked by genetics in planted drones, and uploaded viruses. Each time they had limited and localized effect that the Borg found and isolated from the rest of the collective. Even the Queen was local. Once damaged or killed, she was downloaded and recreated. Repaired and regenerated. Adaption is the name of the game and the Borg always learn from a successful tactic and wouldn't hesitate to self destruct a Cube and take counter measures or precautions against a similar attack.