Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by pimp, Aug 19, 2008.
True, that.... and a Tantulus Device.
Does anyone find it odd that Starfleet happens to moblize a fleet to take Torros and combat the pending Dominion invasion of 2373 AND repel the Borg incursion of Sector 001 AT THE SAME TIME?
Surely the Dominion was aware of the Borg's presence and picked such a ripe time to attack. I theorize their heads have bumped before, and the Dominion is still standing :-D!
Are you talking about the battle in Call to Arms? If so, Sisko mentions the Borg attack in Blaze of Glory, an episode that's well before Call to Arms. So no, they didn't do it at the same time. If you go by stardate, then First Contact is still three episodes before the Torros.
Rough estimates for the Battle of Sector 001 say Starfleet battled the Borg (one ship!) for days. That was one vessel. The battle of Torros couldn't have lasted more than a day (or else the Dominion would've sent reinforcements).
Of course, perhaps Starfleet was better suited to fight the Borg because the Dominion had them at high alert for so long, giving Starfleet enough time to draw a huge number of their combat-ready ships.
As pointed out above they didn't happen at the same time. Plus Starfleet is large enough and powerful enough that it can defend an empire 8,000ly wide so it should be able to fight off a lone attack and then compete in a wider war.
Also the Dominion War didn't start at the Dominion's choosing, it was forced onto them by the Federation when they mined the wormhole.
Starfleet isn't 8,000 light years wide... that would take much too long for ships to get anywhere. That figure is 8,000 cubic light years... as 200 X 200 X 200. It makes more sense that way, as DS9 was on the outskirts, and the core was only 50 light years away.
I know the war didn't start at the same time as the Borg invasion, but the pact with Cardassia in "By Inferno's Light" was before the Borg "incident" so they knew it was coming.
200 cubed is way more then 8,000. One sector is 20 x 20 x 20 and that is 8,000 cubic light years.
Picard says something to the effect that the Federation stretched across 8,000 light years, which doesn't necessarily mean it is a perfect sphere with an 8,000 light year diameter but could just be the furthest distance between two Federation systems.
That's why you'd need a lot of starships to cover that with the current (2370s) state of ftl technology, which was the point I was getting at.
Nothing wrong with that and the location of DS9 because it was still at the edge (maybe beyond his it was in Bajoran space) of the Federation since it was on the cusp of the Cardassian Union.
How could the Dominion possibly know the Borg were going to attack the Federation when they did? Plus according to Deep Space 9, the attack occurred before the Dominion entered the Alpha Quadrant.
I prefer that then the later date of First Contact as it is easier to believe that they would pull the Defiant away from DS9 before the Dominion gained their foothold in the Alpha Quadrant. Then again a later date excuses the Enterprise out of the early parts of the war due to the damage it received in the battle and having to de-Borg half the ship.
A small fleet of borg is easily defeated by the dominion
if the borg sent everything and the kitchen sink at the dominion, we would see assimilated vorta
Hmmm, your right... miscalc lol. I should make a seperate discussion about that. I highly doubt the Federation was 8,000 light years in diameter. That would take a ship (in Voyager's terms) 8 years to travel from one border to the other... that seems just too far and it would be impossible to mobilize so many ships and bring them to the front lines if it was that large. I always thought picard was speaking in some volume or area terminology since it says "spread accross" which is left open to interpretation. But DS9 and TNG favor a smaller Federation model. The USS Valiant's mission was to circumnavigate the Federation in 3 months.... yeah 8,000 light years just to go through it? I doubt it.
You can doubt it all you want. That doesn't make it any less true.
Borg are over-rated..if they have 'millions of ships' then why havent they taken over the galaxy yet? Because they are overated...DOMINION scientist are equal to federation and they would, as stated above, beat the Borg with some kind of virus..if a second rate engineer like Geordi and Wesley could take down the Borg, why not the Dominion?
^As Geordi's little virus idea in "I Borg" was never actually tested, there's no way to know whether it would have been completely effectively, partially effective, or in fact completely useless.
Assuming that it would work...well, you know what they say about assumptions...
Borg #1: "What's this?"
Borg #2: "It's a shape."
Borg #1: "But it's a paradox, that shape can't exist in nature."
Borg #2: "You're right... Deleted as irrelevant."
Borg #1: "Cool. Wanna go assimilate some stuff?"
Assimilation works by injecting nanoprobes into the bloodstream. Founder's do not have bloodstreams and are thus immune to assimilation. And Species 8472 has shown us that the Borg have an insurmountable achilles heel when it comes to being unable to assimilate their foes.
Possible, but unlikely.
The Feds were essentially on the same technological level as the Dominion by mid to end of the War.
And the Feds had to send a fleet to destroy a single cube.
You are overestimating the Dominion and it's capabilities.
They haven't taken over the galaxy because that way they would lose a valuable source of new technologies (meaning races that are sufficiently developed to resist them to a degree ... like the Federation).
Keep a sufficiently large pool of races in the galaxy for new and diverse technological discoveries ready for assimilation.
As for the virus in question ... it was never tested.
While it is possible the Dominion could definitely resort to extermination of the Borg with various viruses and numerous technologies like the Feds ... the Borg also have hundreds of safety measures to protect themselves from such scenarios ... which is why we never see them taken down.
Oh yes, they took a blow in 'Endgame', but while Voyager knocked out all of the Borg's TW hubs in the galaxy via chain reaction, problem is, the Borg can still travel through TW velocities independently.
They received a large blow ... but hardly one that would exterminate them.
Dominion would win.
The Founders are too smart.
They could probably genetically engineer Borg-resistant Jem Hadar.
Biological assimilation isn't the only way the Borg defeat races or adapt to technology. The Borg hadn't assimilated anyone before they adapted to Worf's phasers or the ship's torpedoes in Q Who, for example. And their weapons still pack quite a punch, no matter who you are. You can still get in one or two shots before they adapt as well, no assimilation required to create a defense there.
And before anyone brings up Species 8472, I'd like to point out that they would thoroughly rip apart the Dominion. A single, grazing shot from a mere fighter was able to knock Voyager silly, which is far beyond any sort of firepower we've seen the Dominion unleash, even with phased polaron weapons. Also, we've never seen the Dominion actually blow up a planet as well.
One more point: I'd really like to see Starfleet go up against 15 Cubes. I don't think the results are going to be purdy. See Starfleet go down in flames and we'll get a good idea about how other races will fare.
Actually the Borg had already assimilated Federation technology before Q, Who. You had Seven of Nine's family and ship get taken over and then the attacks in the neutral zone at the beginning of TNG which were attributed to the Borg.
The Dominion haven't been shown to be able to blow up a planet, but they tried to blow up a star.
Really, I think it's safe to assume that any of the major powers could blow up a planet _if they wanted to_. The only questions are how many ships they'd need and how long it would take.
Also, there's the distinction between blowing up a planet and simply neutralizing anyone living on it. Even the Maquis had the ability to kill off an entire world.
And you can still get a shot or two in before they adapt, regardless of updating or changing your technology. We've seen the Borg take on the Klingons via flashback and we know they've fought the Romulans, and I doubt they fared much better (colonies getting scooped up, for one thing), despite perhaps not having a prior experience like Starfleet had with the Raven.
It just seems odd to me the notion that the Borg are solely reliant upon assimilation as offense or defense. Take that away, and you've still got a massive vessel capable of faster-than-warp speeds and humongous fire power, powerful enough to get through an entire fleet of Federation vessels, vessels that can bypass a Borg Cube's adaptive defenses. Even without assimilation, you've still got a ship whose energy weapons pack much more firepower than a ship-mounted phaser.
It's almost as if people are assuming, "Omg, if the Borg can't assimilate this cowboy, then their durability is tissue paper and their weapons are spitballs!" If Starfleet engineers can come up with ways to combat the Dominion, the Borg certainly can.
Something that the Federation and other powers can do, through a technobabble explanation and a trilithium bomb rather than brute force like 8472.
I think the assumption that because a combined Federation, Romulan, Klingon and (eventually) Cardassian alliance defeated the Dominion means the Borg would wipe the floor with them is equally flawed.
Nevermind that the Dominion were cut off from their homebase because of friggen Gods.
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