Bob Orci's Comment: The Film Stood on its Own Without...[Spoilers]

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by foreverton, May 16, 2013.

  1. foreverton

    foreverton Ensign Newbie

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    ...Khan. In a post to trekmovie last night, he said that they felt that the rogue Starfleet admiral story was strong enough to stand on its own without making Harrison Khan. They even played with the idea of having Harrison be a Federation criminal or some other seedy individual brought in by Marcus.

    With that said, why use Khan at all? As I watched, I was thinking that they'd come up with the best villain since Khan....then it all fell apart. After a while, I even came around to enjoying the alternate universe Khan. It was the ripoff of the TWOK engine room scene and the yell that lost me.
     
  2. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    I rather liked it being Khan. I mean, as Harrison it was still wild, and fun, but suddenly we have Khan, and to me, that made it even better. Cumberbatch played that to the hilt, and I believe his portrayal of Khan is what carried the film. If he wouldn't have pulled off this brilliant, revenge filled superhuman, I don't think it would have worked quite as well. I loved it.
     
  3. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because it made the movie both more fun and more sellable.

    I've been rooting for "Kha-a-a-a-an!" from early on.
     
  4. SalvorHardin

    SalvorHardin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I wonder if Cumberbatch has anything in his contract about a second movie.
     
  5. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Rated Awesome By 9 out of 10 Awesome Experts Moderator

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    He was great as Khan and I liked that they played him differently than we've seen him before. He was mainly concerned with saving his people, but was completely willing to kill anyone in his path to do so.
     
  6. Titus Andronicus

    Titus Andronicus Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I wonder how folks would have reacted had they just said from the get-go that it WAS Khan? It's just a thought I've had since seeing the movie.
     
  7. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Here's the catch 22. A movie about a rogue Admiral with an agenda turns into "Insurrection". Nothing to really catch the crowd. If you turn the baddie into a name brand, however, it sells.

    Do I believe Khan would submit to the powers of Starfleet and do their nefarious bidding? Not really. According to Trek-lore, he ruled a quarter of Asia in the late 20th century. But here, he's reduced to a non-Indian James Bond in the 23rd century? Nah.

    That being said, I suppose it's an interesting "what if" scenario, but I think they picked the wrong character. Oh well. Such is life. I'm still really looking forward to seeing it this weekend.
     
  8. Phily B

    Phily B Commodore Commodore

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    I liked it being Khan. A lot.
     
  9. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Rated Awesome By 9 out of 10 Awesome Experts Moderator

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    They were holding his people hostage, he mentions it in dialogue.
     
  10. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Certainly if they bring Cumberbatch back everyone will know that they're doing another Khan flick. :lol:

    The writers seem to have done their due diligence - no surprise - where the character's original presentation in "Space Seed" is concerned. There were suggestions then that Khan had attempted to be a responsible leader, by his lights, and that he cared about the followers who'd gone into deep space with him.

    One can only imagine that finding himself alone and essentially imprisoned in this strange future that he would be at least as concerned with protecting and reviving his crew as he was in the original story...particularly because if he plans to try seizing power anywhere in the Federation his fellow supermen would be the best nucleus and leadership for his new armies.
     
  11. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Rated Awesome By 9 out of 10 Awesome Experts Moderator

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    They left him alive, people are expecting it now.
     
  12. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, I haven't seen the movie yet. But still, would an aggressive tyrant who ruled half of Asia submit to "his people" being held "hostage"? I'd think he would have ripped some heads off at the beginning, and it'd be a done deal. After all, he took over an entire starship in 'Space Seed'.

    Anyway, as I said, 'whateveh.' He's Khan. He's now a Brit. And he's a pawn (OOOhhhhhh! See the irony? "You are a PAAAAWWWWNNN, Kirk...").
     
  13. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    I'd be happy to see him return.

    The movie will explain it really well, and believe me, Cumberbatch delivers.
     
  14. SalvorHardin

    SalvorHardin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And even if it's still early, Lindelof did say:

     
  15. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Rated Awesome By 9 out of 10 Awesome Experts Moderator

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    Maybe you should see the movie before objecting to how he is shown. His motivation is made very clear and understandable. He's ruthless, but he does care about his people and doesn't want them hurt. His plan involves getting revenge and saving his people.
     
  16. trekker670

    trekker670 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I couldn't have said it better myself. The first thing I said when I walked out of the theater is that it was a good/decent movie, but it would have been a great one if they had dropped Khan and made him either just another Starfleet officer or even just some other augment. They could have even alluded to Khan himself as an homage.
     
  17. foreverton

    foreverton Ensign Newbie

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    I don't understand the logic of this. If they decided to go with Khan to bring in a crowd, why not plaster his name all over every poster and trailer they made? That would've told the non-Trek fans to expect the best villain we can give you, the Joker to our Batman, because Khan is back!

    Instead, they kept it closely-held in typical Bad Robot fashion and you have to actually see the film (or seek out spoilers) to find out who Cumberbatch really plays. I highly doubt that a non-Trek fan, having just learned from his buddy that this was an awesome film that has Khan in it, is more inclined to go see it just because of the name Khan.

    I also disagree with you comparing this to Insurrection. While boh feature renegade Starfleet admirals, the spectre of interstellar war hanging in the balance is far more compelling than occupying a "fountain of life" planet. Harrison's actions and how their mission tore apart the Enterprise crew, and the moral issues of targeted killing inherent to it, made for incredible Trek. The most moral debate we got in Insurrection was a Picard speech that we all agreed with anyway.

    In the post-9/11 age of targeted killings and drone strikes, I bet half the audience agreed with Kirk whilst the other half agreed with the rest of the crew. That's real tension, conflict, and relevance that Insurrection sorely lacked.
     
  18. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think Bad Robot painted themselves into a corner. From the outset, everyone said "DO KHAN NEXT!!!" Bad Robot remained mum on the issue. Then, when the new movie was on the radar, they felt the need to make the outright proclamation "IT'S NOT KHAN!!!!", to suggest they had something else in mind (when in reality, they never did).

    Absolutely. The rabid fans know it's Khan going into the movie. The casual viewer will say "Oh, yeah. That guy. Didn't he kill the whales, or something?" and just enjoy the summer popcorn experience.

    OK, good point. I agree.
     
  19. beamMe

    beamMe Commodore

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    Actually, at the point where we first see him in the film, he thinks all his people were killed by Marcus.
     
  20. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Rated Awesome By 9 out of 10 Awesome Experts Moderator

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    I thought he said something about being the one who put them in the torpedoes and shielding them. Marcus just knew and wanted to use them to kill him and start a war with the Klingons.