Black Panther animated trailer

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by PsychoPere, Jul 28, 2008.

  1. Ceridwen

    Ceridwen Commodore Commodore

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    In addition to the criticisms of Hudlin's writing (of which I've only read the marriage to Storm, which was just full of so much wrong), the man has also been extremely unprofessional. When Hudlin took over the line, Christopher Priest was a class act, endorsing the man's writing when the reigns were handed over. However, when fan response to the writing turned sour, Hudlin began posting online under an assumed name as a fan of his own work, trashing Priest's previous run the whole time.

    I want to be excited about a Black Panther cartoon (I've loved the character in the past), but with Hudlin at the wheel, I'm not sure I can.
     
  2. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It has an eight-episode order. I've read that it's a mini-series rather than an ongoing series, but I'm not sure if that's correct or not.
     
  3. Galactus

    Galactus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Why can't I? Priest is loved by comic fans for his years of work in the industry. He knows how the industry works and he knows how to get things done and get an audience.

    Hudlin runs a network that these comic fans will generally hate, the movies he has done they generally hate. He gave up writing Spiderman to just do Black Panther. I have seen too many postings about things that he has done wrong with Black Panther that have nothing to do with the story that was told or the writing. So I have seen firsthand why they "hate" his work.

    Maybe after I am finished with him. The idea behind behind Black Panther is just a good story. Steel would be on that list too.
     
  4. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    [LEFT]I'm curious about what people here think Hudlin has done wrong with Black Panther?

    I started reading BP on Hudlin's run, and though I think the book is lacking in strong villians, and also makes the mistake of trying to make BP too perfect, I like the artwork, I also like the Storm/BP marriage. I don't think mainstream comics has ever had a black supercouple and I think it's added depth and potential storylines for both characters. I also loved the first six issues, collected in Who is the Black Panther? I just wished that Hudlin kept up that quality of storytelling.

    I've also read the two trades that Priest wrote. I don't see much that's noticeably better or worse between the two. Though I think Priest did a great job with Achebe, though he made him a bit too silly toward the end of the Enemy of the State TPB. One thing I didn't care for was Everett Ross narrating the story. I didn't think he was all that funny. Sometimes, but he got to be too much, became annoying, and detracted from the story. [/LEFT]
     
  5. grabmygoblin

    grabmygoblin Commodore Commodore

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    I think Hudlin's writing is laughably bad. setting aside literary analysis (soldiers 8000 years ago saying "kiss my butt Wakandan!"?), the racism, and most other glaring issues, I'll stick with
    • he chose to completely ignore many events of The Black Panther's history, especially from Priest's run. he rewrote characters in often offending manners without even trying to explain how or why.
    and
    • there's a bizarre and outdated form of sexism that is found throughout, mandating women as babymakers and submissive to men.
    but don't take my word for it. if you have a live journal account, navigate to the scans_daily community and read the recent six-part analysis of Hudlin's Black Panther:

    part one
    part two
    part three
    part four
    part five
    part six
     
  6. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Thanks for the links. I read a good deal of them, and to be honest I think a lot of the critics are trying to ream Hudlin for stuff other people do as well.

    -For one, I saw a lot of criticism about he doesn't know how nations work. I mean, come on BP is a comic book. And BP is based in the Marvel universe where Namor and Dr. Doom, among others are actual heads of state, and all types of intergalatic empires. You have to allow some fantasy elements in there.

    -Storm and BP are being criticized for being written as African-American, not African. If I recall, wasn't Storm's father African-American? And even if not, she lived in America quite some time. And were people criticizing Claremont, Byrne, or any of the other white writers who probably knew as much about African cultures as Hudlin in regards to Storm's cultural depiction? I think a lot of foreign characters have been written by Americans and characterized/depicted through an American lense. Likewise, a lot of Brits write American characters, and no bats an eye. This goes far beyond BP.

    -Lionization of Priest's run. If Priest was so great, why didn't he sell more books? Priest did a good job with Panther, but why should Hudlin be beholden to Priest? Comic characters get reimagined all the time. And Hudlin did keep the Dora Milage (sp.). Everett Ross made a cameo, and I'm sure he has done other things.

    -Racism. Where is it? Hudlin's BP is very confident, and a bit of a know-it-all, but so is Batman for example. What makes his portrayal racist? Should he be more deferential to white characters? He is a king, so being a little high-handed or dismissive shouldn't be out the norm. And I haven't seen too much of that from either Hudlin or Priest's BP.

    Also, when you take into account the history of Africa, and Africans in Western Hemisphere, there is a long, sad, bloody history of tragedy and mistrust between blacks and whites. It would make sense for Wakanda to be cautious of European powers, since in the Marvel universe, they carved up pretty much the rest of Africa (also in the real world), tried to encroach on Wakanda before, etc during the colonial era and even after. That viewpoint doesn't seem so "American" to me. One thing I noticed to, was that the Panther God in the BP marriage issue was a white panther (one person had said BP had a dream in one of the issues in which he was attacked by a white panther or something).

    -Perhaps what is driving so many people mad is that Hudlin has perhaps done something that white writers did to black characters for years, and sometimes continue to do, marginalize them. White characters are not the guiding, central characters in Hudlin's BP and I wonder if it isn't disconcerting to a lot of people. Especially after Priest used Ross as a narrator, once again telling a black person's story through a white person's eyes (ie. Last King of Scotland, Cry Freedom, Ghosts of Mississippi, Mississippi Burning, etc., etc.). Priest purposely did that to build up white readership, and he still had weak sales.

    -I don't think that Hudlin's characters are overly concerned with race, though they are conscious of it, and in many ways they proudly embrace their racial heritage. Perhaps some people don't feel it's a heritage (s) worth embracing but Hudlin does. And I applaud him for that. A book written from a more pronounced 'black' perspective isn't a bad thing. I think it can help broaden perspectives, it's already generated a lot of debate, and maybe turn more people on to comics who have been underserved in that regard.

    Now, does his run on BP have problems. Yeah. His writing is okay, but he needs to work on villians, character development, etc. But I don't think his book is racist. As for the sexism charge it's something I would have to look through the books again to see if I spot a pattern there.
     
  7. Galactus

    Galactus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Very well said DarKush with more detail than I added.

    As far as the culture thing between African American and African, I know plenty of both and for the most part, there is no difference between culture. Of course their are differences such as food and such, but at the core the cultures are the same, just like the difference between Mexicans and Mexican Americans, and say Canadians and Americans.
     
  8. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    I dislike Hudlin's run for many reasons:

    - He basically tears up everything previously done with the character, creating a continuity nightmare. He created an ongoing problem with Dane Whitman that still hasn't been resolved.
    - His terrible characterization of Storm, and the laughably bad handling of the wedding.
    - Accusing anyone who doesn't like his run of being racist.
    - He writes Black Panther as an Elite Mary Sue, which, apart from being grating, isn't very interesting dramatically. And he commits the cardinal sin of trying to build his character up by tearing others down (for example, rewriting Priest's account of T'Chaka's meeting with Captain America so that T'Chaka straight-up beats him in a fight and then slings him over his back).
    - His treatment of white characters mingles various degrees of contempt.
    - His politics are cartoonishly integrated and painful to read, and make little sense in light of the book he's writing.
    Quality doesn't equal sales, certainly not for a minor character (Hudlin's book would have met a similar fate long ago but for Marvel continually feeding him crossovers to provide temporary boosts). And Hudlin should build on and respect the work of his predecessors, instead of bashing him under an assumed identity on internet forums.
    It's normally not an issue with how BP himself is written, it's the tone of the book as a whole; pretty much every white character is stupid or evil (numbered among the exceptions would be most of the wedding guests), and every single villain he encounters is a European or American racist.

    On a more specific note, Hudlin is, after JMS, the prime offender in writing Tony Stark as the spawn of Satan's mating with the military-industrial complex.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2008
  9. Galactus

    Galactus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I am sorry but your reasons for disliking Black Panther have very little to do with the actual stories and more to do with who is writing. You reference T'Chaka beating Captain America and your reaction is right in line with how the story was written. I mean you seem to be mad at Hudlin for not following what Priest did. And Black Panther doesn't act any different than Captain America yet that seems to be ok. And the wedding was flat out good. I know plenty of people that liked it and some have never read a comic before.
     
  10. grabmygoblin

    grabmygoblin Commodore Commodore

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    it is racist, but you're absolutely right, it's the way black characters have been and sometimes continue to be written, so I tolerate it. I roll my eyes, I voice my dislike, but I let it slide, because it does mean equal treatment, even if it's poorer treatment all around.

    I hope it acts as a wake-up for more comic readers, to get them to notice all racism in comics more often and voice their dislike louder.

    I read Priest chose Ross because the alternative to a narrator was Panther monologuing which would ruin his cool enigmaticness and he was basically T'Challa's opposite in every way. white, yes, but also a small gangly geek.

    as for sale numbers, well... that's a poor arguement all around. if you're posting on this board then you know as well as I that good fiction does not always mean popularity, and popularity often finds awful undeserving fiction.
     
  11. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I brought up sales figures because Priest's don't match with all of this adoration he seems to get in those links you provided, and from what I've heard about this on other forums. If everyone loved him so much, why wasn't Panther such a big success during his run? I do agree with you that money or ratings doesn't equal quality, or replace quality. But then again, the results are the results. I think Priest tried to bring white readers in, adding Ross and Nikki, providing a 'white' POV, or gateway to Panther. Making him an enigmatic, mysterious badass, a la Morpheus or just about every Samuel L. Jackson character. But I think Hudlin has tried to tell Panther's story through the Panther. I think Hudlin has tried to keep the badass elements but ditched the 'white' perspective.

    Granted I don't like the Mary Sue elements of it either. I want Hudlin to do a better job revamping Panther's rogues or creating new rogues. I want to see Panther really getting challenged, so that we can see him take a punch, get back on his feet, and find a way to overcome, which is the essence of a great hero for me. I also would like to see more of the political/governing aspects of Wakanda, especially since I'm a poli sci grad.

    To be honest, I also have a problem with Wakanda being so technologically advanced, but then again, this is the Marvel Universe, so it's not that big of a problem for me. And besides, it's good to see an African country portrayed as rich, powerful, and advanced. Wakanda might be the first ever depicted that way in mainstream comics.

    Also, not every Panther villian has been white. He just brought back Killmonger and in one of the previous books he fought some Arabian guy, can't remember his name.

    I don't see what's so bad about his characterization of Storm, as opposed to what we've seen before. He does try to emphasize her regalness, her royalty, and respects her power-level, which should've been upped years ago. I don't think she's even Omega level and she pretty much controls nature. I would like to see them move from the honeymoon phase and deal with some 'real' marriage issues, but I don't want them to break up.

    Finally I think Panther has been a 'minor' character because he didn't get the push he perhaps deserved years ago. The same could be said for a lot of characters. The ongoing battle between Hudlin's supporters and detractors show that BP has made an impact on a lot of people. Plus, he has a cool origin, a classic, iconic look, and could possibly make for an interesting series of movies. But I think one of his problems is that he is black and that he is African, and it would be hard for the majority white audience in America, the primary audience for a comic or movie, to really relate to and support. Before you bring up Hancock, he was portrayed as a drunk bum who ultimately was redeemed and even physically saved by a normal white guy. So, that idea or depiction of blacks isn't too far from the media norm. Even I sometimes shamefully can't relate or even imagine a black nation as powerful as Wakanda after being fed a constant media diet of disease, famine, genocide, and despair when he comes to issues about Africa, Haiti, and blacks in America.

    Hudlin might not be handling him the right way, but I think both Priest and Hudlin have done a good job showing how cool and vital the Panther could be to the Marvel Universe. I also applaud TPTB at Marvel for getting behind both of them, and trying to keep this character and book going.

    Black characters, not to mention Hispanic, Asian, and other non-white characters have a long way to go before they ever really break through to the majority white audience, but it's cool to finally start to see BP, Storm and then Luke Cage and even Blade on covers and getting some attention and respect, or to see Vixen, Black Lightning, new Firestorm, etc. in the Justice League. I've also liked the new Blue Beetle. This stuff does have a whiff of gimmicky to it, but I don't think they should stop doing it, even if it is a gimmick, because who knows what little kid or grown adult might be turned on to comics if they see a cover with someone that looks like them on it? Diversifying comics I think brings more people in and is in line with the increasing globalization of cultures occuring right now in the real world.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2008
  12. Out Of My Vulcan Mind

    Out Of My Vulcan Mind Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, Will Smith has a string of huge hits in which he played different types of characters, and there are other bankable African-American stars, so I don't think audience identification would necessarily be a problem for a series of Black Panther films if they were well made.

    As far as the sales for Priest's Black Panther, it should be pointed out that in the current comics marketplace a 62-issue run is actually very good for most characters.

    Increasing diversity in comics is a laudable goal, as is providing black and Latino characters who are positive role models (and in that light, did everybody hear about the Comic-Con announcement that the Milestone characters will be introduced into the DC Universe, with Static joining the Teen Titans and Icon slated to join the Justice League?). And if the stories are well written there's really no reason for this type of thing to come off as gimmicky.

    But I think Hudlin does a disservice to this cause as his writing is so clumsy. Wakanda as a rich, advanced African nation is a fine idea, and some of the criticisms on those Live Journal pages don't ring true (like an isolated, landlocked country becoming advanced being illogical) since comics have always included elements that don't make real world sense and need a large dose of suspension of disbelief. But a Wakanda that has the cure to cancer but won't share it and has plenty of oil but doesn't drill it because all of its energy needs are met with green technologies comes off as wanky nonsense.

    It strikes me that in putting forward positive representations of an African country and an African hero that Hudlin is overcompensating and often going so far over the top that it sabotages his goals by making the Panther and all of Wakanda uber-Mary Sues. The poor dialogue really doesn't help either.

    Now, obviously discussion of the series has been racially charged on some message boards - which I hadn't been aware of until this thread prompted me to look around - and some of the criticisms of the series have been framed in racist terms, which it seems has unfortunately led to a situation where some dismiss all criticism of the series as being the result of racism. Well, no, however much some may like the series, and however out of line some of the comments on message boards may have been, there is a valid point of view towards the series that is very critical.
     
  13. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, I am; he changed Priest's story for something vastly inferior, and, as I said, did it because he wanted to use Captain America to show how cool T'Chaka was.
    This is subjective, but, no, it wasn't. He completely rewrote the characters' history to turn Storm into BP's deferential, girly sidekick.
     
  14. Galactus

    Galactus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And what exactly was wrong with that? Captain America has always been the measuring stick for how good a fighter someone is in the Marvel Universe. It has always been said that Black Panther and Captain America were always on the same level with Cap always getting the slight edge. So is it really a stretch that his father would have defeated a young Cap? Like I said your reaction is exactly like the General in the story, that is just flat out impossible

    So is Sue Reed's girly sidekick? You think Storm getting married and becoming a Queen is making her a girly sidekick. Wow. Just wow. Is that really how you view marriage.
     
  15. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    It's an example of Mary Sueism, remaking the story to beat up Cap to make another guy look cool.
    Depends on how their marriage is written; in the Lee/Kirby period, for example, that's a fair characterization (though the same could be said of most if not all Silver Age female characters.
    No, the way Hudlin writes it is making her a girly sidekick.

    I don't object to the idea in principle, but I do object to rewriting the characters' histories, and, just generally, bad writing. Hudlin can't write Storm as a powerful, independent figure for beans; she's just an accessory to prove how awesome Black Panther is.
     
  16. Galactus

    Galactus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Are you sure that we are talking about the same book? The way he writes Storm is that he first had to find a woman that was strong enough to be Queen of a nation of warriors when she was not even from the country. Then he shows Panther having being afraid of her power, and he showed the man get down on his knees and basically begs her to be his wife while she took care of a guy in 2 seconds that he had been fighting with for minutes.

    CC i am sorry but your reasons for disliking BP seem to be that he is not cultural to your liking anymore.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2008
  17. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Culturally to my likely?
     
  18. Galactus

    Galactus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Hudlin's Black Panther is not for you, just like most comics today are not for me. I think the things you hold against Hudlin are the things that all writer's make. They all want to put their stamp on the character.
     
  19. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Putting your own stamp on a character is not rewriting his history and creating a massive, irresolvable continuity snarl, turning the main character into a giant Mary Sue, and just generally not writing compelling stories (certainly, others have done that, but that's a bad thing).
     
  20. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I agree with you that all of the criticism of Hudlin isn't racially tinged, but that doesn't mean some of it isn't either. Or that maybe some critics just can't wrap their head around the Panther being the star of his own book, and telling the story through his eyes.

    I tend to agree with you that Hudlin is overcompensating a bit. But when I look at the history of black comic characters I can understand why he is.

    As for the bankability of black stars, I agree and disagree with you. Denzel, Eddie, Halle, Samuel L. Jackson, Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, and perhaps Jamie Foxx are the most bankable, but I feel that often comes with preconditions. Most of the time they are one of a handful of blacks, or the only blacks in the movie. And they are usually paired with a white/Latina love interests, if they get a love interests at all. Which would all be issues with a BP film that would more than likely have a predominately black cast and perhaps either Monica Lynne or Storm as the love interest.

    The stuff that happened with Spawn, in which the suits told McFarlane he had to add white characters to the film so it wouldn't be seen as a 'black' film is part of the problem I see with a Black Panther film.

    Most major films about Africa are really about white people in Africa and you're seeing whatever problem is occurring in the movie through their eyes, or Africa and Africans serve merely as backdrops and living props. I wonder if the suits are really willing to spend money on a film based in Africa, with a predominately black cast. It would be unprecedented.

    Tyler Perry's films, which have predominately black casts, have done very well lately, but that's because they are made on a shoestring budget.

    I think a BP movie can work, but it would have a hard time initially bringing in an audience that might not feel they could relate to a black superhero, especially one who isn't wisecracking or not in a comedy/dramedy. However, if the suits marketed it as a comic book/adventure/sci-fi (whatever film) first then more people might give it a shot. Especially if someone like Will Smith gets involved, even though I don't want to see him play BP.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2008

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