(BIG) If the Tal Shiar/OO attack on the Founders

Discussion in 'Deep Space Nine' started by Photon, Jun 19, 2013.

  1. Photon

    Photon Commodore Commodore

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    had worked, would:

    A) The jems have gone ape shit and have gone through the 'anamoly' and attack everything in sight or

    B) Give up and die

    Both answers were speculated in Inprobable Cause/Die is Cast
     
  2. Third Nacelle

    Third Nacelle Captain Captain

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    I think if that attack had succeeded, there would still be enough Founders scattered around to keep the Jem'Hadar under control and start a new Great Link.

    On the other hand, if there were no Founders left, I would guess that the Vorta/JH relationship would fall apart pretty quickly and the JH would do a lot of damage to whatever they could find before the White ran out.
     
  3. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I somehow doubt the Founders physically manufactured the White themselves. The Vorta had to have done that being they were the ones distributing it.

    Tain just didn't think it through... at all. In all likelihood the Great Link, albeit smaller, would've survived between the ones actively infiltrating, the hundred and any who may be in the Dominion doing anything else.

    Regardless, the Vorta would unleash the Jem'Hadar, even if they somehow were all annihilated. The Female Founder In What We Leave Behind flat out said the Jem'Hadar would fight to the death, even after she died. I somehow doubt the Vorta are just going to stop making the White just because their gods are dead. If anything quite the opposite, they'll want to avenge them.
     
  4. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    It was actually speculated that they would "weaken and die." But "A" would happen before "B."

    --Sran
     
  5. SpHeRe31459

    SpHeRe31459 Captain Captain

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    According to ST:Insurrection one of the Alpha Quadrant manufacturers of Ketracel-white was the Son'a.
     
  6. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    Yes, but that has nothing to do with the attack on the Founders that happened before the Dominion even came into the Alpha Quadrant. The topic is about what might have happened had Tain's plan succeeded. The Son'a weren't even in the picture then.

    --Sran
     
  7. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It has plenty to do with. It demonstrates the Founders have no qualms about outsourcing the manufacture of the drug along with the distribution. So, another point that the Jem'Hadar would still have a supply of white even if the Founders were eliminated.
     
  8. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    You're missing my point. The Dominion hadn't established that relationship yet. I can believe that the Founders might outsource the drug to someone else, but it's also possible that they were willing to let the Son'a do so only because their supply line to the Gamma Quadrant was cut off by the Prophets. That wouldn't have been an issue while still in the Gamma Quadrant.

    --Sran
     
  9. SpHeRe31459

    SpHeRe31459 Captain Captain

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    Well we'll never really know, but I took it as a sign that the Founders probably used yet another race they control back in the Gamma Quadrant to produce it for them. Given what we know of the Dominion pretty much dominating (pun intended) whatever trade, commerce, and peoples they want in the quadrant. Also since we know the Vorta are bred to basically be the Founders right-hand-men/administrative lackies, it's not likely something the Vorta produce themselves.
     
  10. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, sir. I believe you are. It simply demonstrates behavior in regards to their super drug to control their slave warrior race. Yes we're discussing an alternate scenario, but that doesn't mean behavior patterns in regards to control of that substance aren't relevant information. If they're willing to trust the Son'a with something that important, I imagine they'd trust the Vorta or someone else with it in the Gamma Quadrant.
     
  11. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    I'm sure it's not, but I have a hard time believing the Founders would entrust something so important to another group given their mistrust of solids. After all, if the group were bold enough to corner the market on the drug, they would have the loyalty of the Jem'Hadar, not the Founders. Why take the risk? Weyoun himself said that the Founders' ability to control the Jem'Hadar is overstated.

    --Sran
     
  12. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Because a group of changelings working a menial 9-5 job in a ketracel white factory would be beneath them when they can be doing important things like oozing out.
     
  13. SpHeRe31459

    SpHeRe31459 Captain Captain

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    So then if you go with my premise of it being made by another race, I think we get to a pretty nasty Scenario A. The Jem's rampage, they go to the subjected race making the White and take it all and possibly even kill this race in unfocused rage (which is short sighted but they wouldn't care at that point). They'd probably slaughter the Vorta for being weak fools who are not strong enough to avenge their gods' deaths, and then wreak serious havoc on the Alpha Quadrant in the name of the Founders until their White supplies finally ran out.
     
  14. SpHeRe31459

    SpHeRe31459 Captain Captain

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    Exactly, the Founders are nothing if not elitist.
     
  15. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    That's prescisely my point. You can't assume that a given pattern of behavior will apply under completely different circumstances. Consider what we know about the Founders. They don't trust solids, any solids. Why would they willingly turn over control of drug production to the Vorta?

    Yes, they were willing to allow the Son'a to assist them in the Alpha Quadrant, but they had no other means of manufacturing the drug after being cut off from the wormhole. Those circumstances were highly unusual.

    Recall that Weyoun hounded Dukat endelessly at the beginning of the war becasue he was concerned about the supply of drug available for the Jem'Hadar. Clearly, they hadn't found another means of making the drug. The Son'a were a last resort, not a luxury.

    --Sran
     
  16. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    So being wiped out by their own soliders is preferable to that? I can't believe you'd even suggest such a thing.

    --Sran
     
  17. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    I don't think elitist is the right word. In any event, the Founders clearly don't trust solids. They also believe it's their duty to impose their order on the galaxy. I refuse to believe they'd give up the control that's so important to them solely out of convenience. The Changelings are not a group of beings who take the easy way out.

    --Sran
     
  18. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Your belief seems to be rather constrained. They have a vast interplanetary empire that dwarfs the Federation. There are other safeguards than for the ruling class to work in the factories themselves. Have secret factories with Vorta in them. Vorta are equipped with suicide implants. A self destruct just in case rogue Jem'Hadar both find and attack the factory isn't out of the question.

    Or have loyal client races manufacture the individual components, then bring them to a classified area for the yet another race to assemble the drug. All of them being in the dark. The Founders trust them enough to distribute the drug after all. Unless you think a Founder individually hands out each tube to each soldier, which we've seen isn't true. We've seen that the client races, such as the Karemma, are trusted with manufacture of weapons after all.

    The Founders are elitist(yes elitist is the most polite word for a group of people who believe in their racial superiority and think that everything related to the solids is beneath them) jerks, but they're not stupid. That's why they have the genetic coding -and- the white. Redundancy. I'm sure they applied the same concept to the varying degrees to the means in which they employ that control.
     
  19. SpHeRe31459

    SpHeRe31459 Captain Captain

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    I see what your saying. But as a counterpoint, consider that in the Gamma Quadrant they do have (their idea of) order. They pretty much own everything there. Most planets are subjects of The Dominion. They could have very little reservation with letting some poor beat-down subjugated race produce White for them there.

    I could see the Founders getting a sense of smug amusement to see solids manufacturing a substance which they use to control other solids.

    The problem of course would be the Alpha Quadrant production, since they have no such whipped races there, so as you said their last resort was to deal with the shady Son'a.

    EDIT: I see as I was typing this R. Star made many of the same points, and a bit better than I did too :)
     
  20. Captain Clark Terrell

    Captain Clark Terrell Commodore Commodore

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    ^Fair enough. I still wouldn't use a word like elitist. Who cares about being polite? The Founders are xenophobic, totalitarian megaolmaniacs. Calling them elitist when they're far worse than that is side-stepping the issue.

    --Sran