"Beware the Batman" in 2013! New Animated Series

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Admiral_Young, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, it just didn't feel very Batman to me. Batman has been many things, but he's been fairly consistant in tone in comics for awhile now. It all depends on what the show is trying to do. Brave and The Bold was awesome, but it wasn't going for serious, it had its own thing and it did it pretty much perfectly. But, for a more serious Batman show thats trying to tell a continuing story, there are certain things I want from a show like that. BTB doesn't seem to have very many. The "villains drawn from all over" just feel like the show being obscure for the sake of being different.

    This show isn't very close to B:TAS, and it never could be.


    I already know I don't like her in the role. Its a stupid idea, and


    Honestly, the only thing probably keeping them from that is the TV rating and being on Cartoon network. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they would do that if they could.

    Well, the Nolan movies (atleast 2 & 3) are the worst superhero movies ever made (including Catwoman, Superman IV, FF 2, etc) so they really aren't something to bring up in connection to good batman. Also, you're right about the other shows, but the point is BTB has given him a partner, a stupid one that makes seeing the real Batman sidekicks unlikely, which is just another reason for me to hate the choice. I'd rather have solo Batman over batman and Katana.

    Well, we have to agree to disagree with that. Since I think the idea of Alfred physically protecting Batman to be idiotic in general (it could work if Batman is injured, the batcave is under attack, and Alfred throws himself in front of an enemy, but thats for a show with a real, normal alfred, not Alfred with Hulk Hogan's body) I don't think it will lead to anything interesting.
     
  2. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'd hardly call this Alfred a "hulking bruiser". He was buff looking yes but nothing like that description. This is keeping in the tradition of attempting new takes on old characters, and taking from different source materials in order to do that as Christopher stated earlier.


    Also Alfred has been shown as being more than just the butler before. We've already explained numerous times in this thread his background and character history. He isn't JUST the butler. He is much more than that. Especially to Bruce.
     
  3. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Well, I like it, because I don't read the comics. I'm not familiar with the comics Batman, his extended teammates, or anything related. BtB is the first I'd heard of Professor Pyg, Mr. Toad, or Katana. Since the producers are aiming for introducing more comics characters into the TV medium, I guess I'm their target audience, and not you. :shrug:


    Are they "worst superhero movies ever made" because they're more crime dramas than anything? Because I have no idea what a "real" superhero movie would be. The Nolan movies not being superhero movies may explain why they did so well with the rest of us, who aren't dedicated comic superhero fans!
     
  4. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Technically, their target audience is kids about 7 years old. That didn't stop Justice League and other shows from being awesome, and to be fair I don't feel like BTB was too kid oriented. Still, I don't think the show is made for people that no absolutely nothing about Batman (not that there is a huge number of people like that, I'm fairly certain even little kids know basic stuff about him), atleast specifically. No TV show based off a preexisting character wants to confuse new watchers. This show's big problem is that it seems like they just dislike normal batman stuff, so they'll do anything but normal Batman things. I think thats a really screwed up way of doing things, and i think the show will suffer because of it. I really wouldn't be surprised if this show ends up being the worst Batman show. I don't want it to, and the first episode didn't go in that direction, but its being made by people i'
    m starting to think hate Batman. If i didn't know the crew working on it, i'd assume no one working on this show had ever worked on anything DC related. This is definately a very poor replacement for Young Justice (although its still better than TT Go!). Not a bad show (so far) but of the DC cartoons that aren't bad, so far its the weakest, especially in its premise and way of doing things.

    I'm not getting into a Nolan discussion. I'll just say that The dark Knight is my most hated movie of all time, and easily the worst superhero movie ever. Rises wasn't any better, but I don't have as much hate because at that point I knew what to expect. They're both horrible movies, and definately the worst superhero movies I've ever seen (Begins was just mediocre).
     
  5. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Oh good Lord - no one who "hates" Batman would be involved in making a show about Batman! That's inane!
     
  6. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    It felt to me like a very solid and interesting interpretation of Batman. I mean, the way he handled that first fight scene -- knowing exactly what the hood was going to do next, intimidating him by telling him that he knew, popping a dislocated shoulder back in and barely letting it slow him down -- all classic Batman.


    Operative word, "seem." You've seen one episode. Heck, you were damning it before you'd seen any episodes. You keep assuming you can judge things before you have the facts. It only works if you do it the other way around.


    Again, I'm bewildered by the assumption that being different is not exactly the right thing to do. Why redo what's already been done?


    In specifics, of course not, nor should it try to be. Again, it wouldn't be worthwhile if it weren't different and new. But in its maturity, sophistication, and tone, it feels more on a par with B:TAS than any subsequent Batman-solo series to date.


    I have no idea why you'd assume that.


    You're entitled not to watch the show if you don't want to, but I don't know why you'd think Katana is "stupid" just because she's not what you've seen before. If anything, trying new things is a mark of intelligence, not stupidity. You don't have to agree with other people's creative choices, but it's frankly very childish to insult their intelligence just because you would've made a different choice.

    And I'd remind you that just a few weeks ago you were insisting that The Batman was the stupidest Batman show you'd ever seen, but you opened your mind enough to consider evidence to the contrary and now you've reconsidered, at least somewhat.


    But that's exactly what's interesting here -- the incongruity between Alfred's (and now Katana's) nominal, public role as Bruce Wayne's bodyguard and the underlying truth that nobody on the planet needs a bodyguard less -- yet practically nobody puts himself more constantly in danger. So that puts Alfred in a frustrating position, because he feels a duty to protect someone who's beyond his ability to protect. Good drama comes from the conflict between a character's goals and their circumstances. That's why I think that what Watson and Murakami are going for here is an examination of Alfred's struggle to define his role in Bruce's life -- paralleling their exploration of Bruce's own struggle with his dual identity.

    I would call attention to the character of Diggle on Arrow -- nominally Oliver Queen's bodyguard, but ending up being the Arrow's sidekick, and having to balance his duty to serve the Arrow's mission with his duty and friendship toward Oliver. It works there, and it can work here.


    Indeed. It's in keeping with the way many animated shows exaggerate the proportions of the male body, giving them extra-wide shoulders and rib cages. Green Lantern: TAS took that to an extreme degree, giving Hal Jordan an enormous upper body, even though a Green Lantern doesn't exactly need a lot of physical strength, and even though a test pilot built like that would have a hard time getting into a cockpit. It's just caricature.


    That's nonsense. As I've told you, Glen Murakami has been working on DC/Warner Bros.' Batman productions for two decades now, since he was a storyboard artist on B:TAS. And the show's executive producer Sam Register has been the executive in charge of nearly every Batman-related WB production since The Batman. So they have plenty of experience working with what you'd call "normal Batman things." It's absurd to think they'd dislike them.

    But that's just it. Those things have been done, and done well. Why compete with those past successes by trying to do the same things over again? It's not that they dislike those things, it's that they're satisfied with what's been done with them in the past, and rather than just imitate them, they're trying to do something new that hopefully will be just as good.

    Besides, what defines "normal" for you? What's been on TV or film before? A lot of the villains we'll be seeing have been major recurring foes in the comics over the course of years; they just haven't been picked up by any screen adaptation yet, and many of them are arguably overdue for an appearance. Pyg and Toad are among the most prominent, defining villains of Grant Morrison's lengthy tenure on Batman. Anyone who's been reading Batman comics over the past 5-6 years would consider them an entirely "normal" presence in a Batman story.
     
  7. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Thought the first episode was pretty decent, and the dynamic between Bruce and this Katanna girl seems like it could have promise.... but at the same time I find myself having had a hard time really getting excited about any of it. After BTAS, The Batman, and countless DTV movies, this character and his world is just starting to feel a bit too tired and familiar to me.

    Of course I realize I'm not exactly the target demographic for this show, and to most kids it probably does seem fresh and new.
     
  8. Samurai8472

    Samurai8472 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They censored the guns due to the Colorado shootings

    http://variety.com/2012/tv/news/warner-bros-tones-down-batman-tv-toon-1118057164/


     
  9. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^Yes, I know that's why the censored the guns, and I said as much earlier in the thread. My point is that, given that they censored the guns, it's weird that they didn't also censor the references to killing and the onscreen injuries. It seems an arbitrarily inconsistent treatment of violence.

    Thank you. You just made the best argument for why they're doing things like reinterpreting Alfred and featuring different villains. It's so it won't be just the same familiar thing again.


    It doesn't feel like a kids' show to me. Aside from the restriction on showing realistic guns, it feels like one of CN's older-skewing shows, about on a level with something like Green Lantern or Young Justice.
     
  10. RJDonner&Blitzen

    RJDonner&Blitzen Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

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    Well, I'm more of a purist, that's for sure. But if you saw that clip of that was posted earlier with no foreknowledge of the format of this show (and assuming the name Alfred wasn't mentioned), you think you would have recognized that character as Alfred? I sure wouldn't have.
     
  11. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    What does "pure" mean for characters that have been around for decades and been explored in various media? Who is the "pure Alfred"?
     
  12. RJDonner&Blitzen

    RJDonner&Blitzen Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

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    Bruce's butler.
     
  13. Pavonis

    Pavonis Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, well then that is exactly who the Alfred in BtB is - Bruce's butler. But you're still not satisfied.
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    I reject the question, because it's unfair to judge an entire show based on a single clip. It's bad decision-making to assess a data point in isolation without understanding its context.

    Also, you're still fixated on the superficial, the kind of thing you can perceive at first glance. As I've tried to tell you, what defines the essence of a character is what's beneath the surface. Sometimes there can be great satisfaction in coming upon something initially unfamiliar and then recognizing the essence that lies beneath it.


    Exactly. The "pure" Alfred would be the guy seen in the first segment of this column: A chubby, bumbling wannabe detective who came to work for Bruce without even knowing he was Batman, who had a backup feature where he tried to solve crimes and accidentally stumbled upon the solutions, and whose surname was probably Jarvis.
     
  15. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The only issue I had with this Alfred is he seemed a little young. He almost seemed more like an older brother or old Army buddy of Bruce's than a father or mentor figure.
     
  16. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^Again, some Alfreds have been older than others. As I said, post-Crisis versions have usually assumed that Alfred was Thomas Wayne's butler and raised Bruce from childhood, if not infancy; but as that link I gave above shows, originally it was Alfred's father who was Thomas's butler, and Alfred only came to work for Bruce when the latter was an adult, after he'd already become Batman.

    But this Alfred strikes me as a man in his healthy fifties. And since we're in the early years of Batman's career, Bruce is probably in his upper twenties.
     
  17. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    I have to admit at first I was closer to how Kirk55555 felt about the villains & sidekick on this, but after talking about it here, and thinking about it more, I've become a lot more excited about getting to see new characters. We've already gotten plenty of shows/games/movies/novels with Robin, Joker, Two-Face, Penguin, Riddler, Batgirl, ect. I think it's about time we let some new characters get some time in the spotlight.
    And it's also worth pointing out that in a lot of the interviews, they've said they're starting with these lesser known characters, I don't think they've ruled out the more familiar characters appearing later.
    And besides, if they did do the more familiar characters, they'll probably put they're own spin on them that Kirk55555 and people like him will still hate. At least with them doing the new characters, people aren't as likely to be upset about them getting the character "wrong".
     
  18. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Right. I think people forget (heck, even I forgot until now) that Batman:TAS was itself the screen debut of a number of notable characters from Batman comics: Harvey Bullock, Lucius Fox, Leslie Thompkins, Zatanna, Poison Ivy, Ra's al Ghul, Talia, Killer Croc, Bane, Man-Bat, Hugo Strange, Maxie Zeus, the Ventriloquist, Rupert Thorne, Tony Zucco, Professor Milo, and even Two-Face (though Harvey Dent had appeared in the '89 Burton movie). It was also the first screen appearance of Arkham Asylum, though the institution had been name-dropped in an episode of The Flash. Not to mention that it created several characters who'd later be added to the comics, such as Harley Quinn, Renee Montoya, and Lock-Up, plus various original characters all its own like Summer Gleeson, Veronica Vreeland, HARDAC, Roland Daggett, Kyodai Ken, Baby Doll, etc. So if B:TAS, everyone's most admired Batman series, could achieve success by featuring so many comics characters never before adapted to TV and creating so many of its own, why can't BTB do the same?


    Good point.
     
  19. RJDonner&Blitzen

    RJDonner&Blitzen Idealistic Cynic and Canon Champion Premium Member

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    Because he's not the butler; he's the bodyguard.

    The point is that if you didn't know he was Alfred, you wouldn't know he was Alfred. If he just showed up, without spoilers, you'd be wondering who the big bruiser is.

    That's part of what makes it pandering. They don't want Alfred because he's an older man who does chores around the house-- he must be re-imagined as a younger man of action!
     
  20. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    A legitimate artistic choice.
    The fact that it doesn't conform to the image of Alfred you have from some of the comics is irrelevant. So what if it doesn't conform? You're acting as if this choice....what's the cliche? 'raped your childhood'.