Benedict Cumberbatch /John Harrison [SPOILERS]

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by serenitytrek1, Aug 21, 2013.

  1. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It was more pronounced than that...but I still think it qualifies as an homage, not a copy-paste ripoff or what-not. And frankly given what they were going for, I think it plays rather well.

    Inverting the Spock/Kirk roles was fairly clever, as was calling back to what occurred in the film earlier.
     
  2. Cinema Geekly

    Cinema Geekly Commander Red Shirt

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    If that's the case then TWOK is just a Rip-Off of Moby Dick, Khan is Ahab, Kirk the White Whale, hell Khan even spouts Moby Dick dialog. Same for First Contact with the roles reversed! RIP OFFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  3. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Except he isn't really. Orci himself admitted the character was developed as an entirely new character who was named Khan only because Lindelof wanted Khan to be in the movie even before it was written. And really, it could have been a better movie if they stuck with that new character instead.
     
  4. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ...and again, I'll say that if the only thing that changed was that he "wasn't Khan" but the rest of the movie remained essentially the same, I would have been left thinking, "If they're going to go this far, why not take it all the way and just say he's Khan?"

    I -really- don't know what's so unclear about this.

    "STID is about a genetically engineered supervillain from Earth's past who puts Kirk and Spock in a no-win scenario, and one of them must make a huge sacrifice to defeat him..." Really? Where have I heard that plot summary before?
     
  5. Pondslider

    Pondslider Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Khan being from earth's past had nothing to do with the story.
     
  6. Kruezerman

    Kruezerman Commodore Commodore

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    "Khan and his people were condemned to death as war criminals."

    Admiral Alexander Marcus.

    And numerous other lines of dialogue from the movie.
     
  7. Pondslider

    Pondslider Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Is that replying to me? I didn't say it wasn't brought up in the movie. I said nothing about Khan being from the past had anything to do with the actual story. Which is true. As others have said in this thread Harrison and his followers could have come from anywhere and the same basic story would have been the same.
     
  8. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Look, if you want to speculate as to how different the film might be if Khan wasn't Khan, that's all well and good, but that's not what the original premise of this thread seemed to be. My understanding of the original premise was "don't have Khan be Khan, but otherwise minimal changes to the film", in which case I think my concern is valid.

    Whether or not it's pertinent to the film that Khan is from Earth's past, it is brought up in the film. If we're going by the theory of minimal changes, then some generic character from Earth's past being in the film might make me wonder why they didn't use a classic villain. If we're -not- going by that theory, then you can't just say "he's not Khan", but rather you've opened up the question of what his background is instead and how it's significantly different from Khan's.
     
  9. Keeper

    Keeper Commodore Commodore

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    Perhaps the need for magic blood was a hugh sticking point for it NOT being Khan. Khan equaled greater simplicity for resurrecting you know who. ;)
     
  10. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    I have to admit, the same thought struck me the first time I watched ID. It's more interesting if Benedict is simply another augment who Marcus chose to wake - perhaps because he thought he'd be more amiable to their cause than someone like Khan.

    It's simply to rectify why he looks different - Section 31 wouldn't want anyone with a history book about the Eugenics Wars recognizing their secret weapon. That doesn't really bother me. It's just kind of... annoying they went back to the Khan well. But frankly, I think they felt they had to. Everything they wanted to do with reversing the Kirk/Spock roles and the throwbacks to TWOK would not have been as effective otherwise.
     
  11. Immolatus

    Immolatus Captain Captain

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    after thinking about it why did he have to be Khan. why not one of the other supermen that were frozen? when admiral marcus boarded the botany bay why not open a different cryo tube then the one containing Khan? Say the one containing Khans 1st officer John Harrison, who is just as loyal to Khans cause. you could have had that nod to TWOK and space seed but have your own new villain.
     
  12. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    For the same reason you don't make a Batman film with a sociopath clown and call him Bozo.
     
  13. Immolatus

    Immolatus Captain Captain

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    why not if it works. if Bozo is an outstanding villian as was John Harrison it would be fine.
     
  14. M.A.C.O.

    M.A.C.O. Commodore Commodore

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    ^ If it looks like Khan, acts like Khan and feels like Khan, name it Shinzon. :lol:
     
  15. Saul

    Saul Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well why not call the movie Star Battles and instead of Kirk lets have Captain Yeats and instead of Klingons lets call them Blingtons.
     
  16. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    The Dark Knight, starring Heath Ledger as Bozo the Clown. Yeah, that would've worked just as well:lol:
     
  17. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Well, in the case of Batman, there's better marketing potential if the villain is the Joker than if he's Bozo.

    It's a fine enough argument for using Khan, except since they kept him a secret they couldn't take advantage of any marketing potential the character would have had.
     
  18. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    I would also argue with the notion of Khan being Kirk's Joker.
     
  19. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    As would I, but it's an argument I've lost in the past.
     
  20. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    But the question isn't "who are the bad guys;" it's "Who is Kirk/Batman's primary nemesis and foil?"