Before Dishonour....seriously?!

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by sosolidshoe, Jul 3, 2011.

  1. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    Mmmm, I thought that spoilers had an accepted one-year amnesty around here, but a delay for hardcovers that will have a MMPB followup. Or that a proviso of common sense should prevail if a person asked if a certain ST book was worth reading, thus making it obvious that they'd probably not want spoilers in incoming recommendations.

    Otherwise, don't we just declare the entire board one big spoiler alert?
     
  2. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    When you make open declarations of authors in general being sexist, you can't blame individual authors for taking your personal comments very personally.
     
  3. MattWallace

    MattWallace Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    In which case he is wrong and I have said so.
     
  4. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    So which ST novel authors do you accuse, so the right ones know to come and defend themselves? :rommie:
     
  5. MatthiasRussell

    MatthiasRussell Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Location:
    Seattle
    That book is over a decade old. Why would I use a spoiler tag? BTW, Bruce Willis is dead for the entirety of 6th Sense.
     
  6. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    Then what are you saying? You make this broad generalization about "female characters getting the short end of the stick," but you've only cited two specifics, Janeway and Kira, both of which have been explained (and both of whose major life changes result from decisions made by a female editor). You won't give any further specifics to explain just what the hell it is you imagine you're seeing, so how are we supposed to respond?


    Again, just because the decision was made to kill Janeway, that doesn't mean it's because she's a woman. One single, isolated instance is not evidence of a pattern. The distinction you're commenting on here is meaningless unless you can demonstrate a pattern of killing off female characters. With only one instance, you can't prove it's anything more than the luck of the draw.

    Now, let's do this methodically for a change. Instead of cherrypicking, let's take a look at all the evidence. This thread deals with canonical characters who've been killed off in Trek Lit. Updating to the present day, concentrating only on more-or-less major characters who've died in the main book continuity, and leaving out Mirror Universe characters (except one whose death was a major plot point in a main-timeline DS9 novel), the list includes:
    Shakaar
    Janeway
    Drex, son of Martok
    Intendant Kira
    Azetbur
    Kieran Duffy
    Mr. Homn
    President Jaresh-Inyo
    Owen Paris
    Colonel Worf
    Kyle Riker
    Donatra
    Tal'aura
    Montgomery Scott

    I count 9 male and 5 female casualties out of the significant canonical characters (some more significant in prose than onscreen) killed in the main Trek Lit continuity. Add in the more minor characters mentioned in that thread, and they split about evenly male and female. Other books that aren't (necessarily?) in the main continuity have killed off McCoy, T'Pau, Garrovick, and Mark Piper -- again, mostly men.

    All told, a comfortable majority of the canonical characters killed off in Trek Lit have been male. Not that it matters, of course. We don't choose to kill characters based on their sex, but based on whether it serves the story. Nobody's trying to stock their refrigerators here.
     
  7. MattWallace

    MattWallace Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    My Trek books are packed away right now but I have been reading them since the Blish adaptations.

    If you want to believe that women have always been portrayed as well as the men in the Trek novels that's your decision.
     
  8. JWolf

    JWolf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    I think bringing Janeway back will piss off more people then it did when she was killed. I think it's bets to let her stay dead. Things are doing very well with Voyager without her. To be honest, I'd feel cheated if she was back alive.
     
  9. MatthiasRussell

    MatthiasRussell Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Location:
    Seattle
    MattWallace, please read Kristen's books. The 3 out so far have been excellent. Even if you don't like that she is gone, Janeway has left an amazing legacy. As a Voyager fan, you won't be disappointed. I think you will find that they are as good if not better than the best Voyager tv episodes.

    Reading them will hopefully give you greater respect for the franshise. You may also be pleased to know the editor who choose to kill Janeway is no longer an editor there so perhaps you won't have to be so mad and/or disappointed knowing the person most responsible for the situation has moved on in her career.
     
  10. JWolf

    JWolf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    I'm not sure you can include that one. We don't actually know if there was a death.
     
  11. MatthiasRussell

    MatthiasRussell Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Location:
    Seattle
    "How often has it been seriously considered to permanantly kill Picard?"

    Well, there was the possibility of killing Picard in the Best of Both Worlds. Had Avery Brooks chosen not to renew his contract at the end of season 6, he probably would have died with Jadzia, if they decided to continue the show at all. I also understand Chakotay and Kim were considered for death in the show because the actors were a pain to work with. So, to be fair, even in the tv days, characters were up for the axe but then the actors could be responsible for a character's death.
     
  12. MatthiasRussell

    MatthiasRussell Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Location:
    Seattle
    Wait, wait. So you aren't sure if he is dead but you are certain Janeway is?
     
  13. JWolf

    JWolf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    We know Janeway is dead. We know there's a way to bring her back. What I'm saying is let her stay dead.
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    You keep shifting the goalposts. Are you talking about "always" or are you talking about the modern stable of novelists? Because those are obviously two very different topics. It goes without saying that there was plenty of sexism in the '70s books, but it's ridiculous to lump those together with what we're doing today, over a generation later.
     
  15. MattWallace

    MattWallace Lieutenant

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2011
    And what is the ratio of major male to female characters? How many captains have been women? If most of the people on the Titanic were men would you be surprised that most of those that died were men as well? When women are undrepresented as major characters, should we be surprised that MORE aren't being killed off or just treated badly?

    How would it look if Trek had a gay captain and then, after the series ended they were uncermoniously killed off? Do you think that the gay fans would be totally in favor of that? After all, one data point doesn't make a trend. Just because the surviving captains were all hetrosexual males doesn't mean a thing in that case? As long as the captains that are killed off are of a group that's few in number that makes it ok?
     
  16. JWolf

    JWolf Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Location:
    Massachusetts, USA
    ^ Why is it you keep going out to left field and making your points look sillier and sillier?
     
  17. MatthiasRussell

    MatthiasRussell Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Location:
    Seattle
    I've got to give Margaret Clark credit. This book was published in 2007 and we probably talk about it more than any Trek book since. Whether killing Janeway or chosing Peter David to write it were good or bad ideas and whether or not books sales have benefited, we are energized and talking.
     
  18. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    I've decided no such thing. You made the accusation, and seemingly specifically about Janeway, Kira and Ro? When we ask for clarification you back away.

    I'm not asking for you to make a complete analysis, or to dig out your collection and reread anything, just a little more than a vague idea about which women were mistreated by which novelists. If they don't roll off your tongue, the incidents couldn't have been so memorable.
     
  19. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2004
    Location:
    New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
    Exactly. Novels that polarize the readership, even 50:50, keep the line energised. If more people liked "Warped!", we'd probably discuss it more often, too.
     
  20. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2001
    A lot better in the literature than it is onscreen.

    More in the literature than there have been onscreen.

    Will you for the love of Gene make up your mind whether you're attacking the novelists or the screenwriters? You seem to make a different argument in every single post. I'm not sure even you know what the hell it is you're actually arguing here.


    I'll repeat what I said before: it's contradictory to say you want equality and then cry bigotry if a minority character is subjected to the same risks as any other character. If you insist the minority character be absolutely sheltered from any negative consequences, that's not equality, it's tokenism.

    Margaret Clark, the editor of Before Dishonor, made the decision to kill off Kathryn Janeway. Are you saying Margaret Clark, a woman who was in a position of power over the novel line, had an objection to women in a position of power? Seriously, are you listening to yourself?