Before & After

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Johnny, Aug 9, 2013.

  1. Johnny

    Johnny Commander Red Shirt

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    The reference to the Year of Hell (4:8/9) in Before & After (3:21), anyone know anything on it from a production point of view? What forethought went into it etc.
    J.
     
  2. Johnny

    Johnny Commander Red Shirt

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    Or my references are WAAAAAY out! :lol:
     
  3. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    the thing about Before and After....it never happened.

    Kes begins her backward time travel because of the radiation she got in Year of Hell. But since Kes actually left Voyager before Year of Hell she didn't get that radiation, so she didn't travel backwards in time, and she couldn't have warned Janeway about the Krenim
     
  4. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Except she did... and Janeway just flew full speed into Krenim space anyways. Gotta love Voyager's general abuse and inconsistency regarding the timeline.
     
  5. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    the warning goes away because the episode never happened
     
  6. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Except the warning was given after the reset button push. But silly Voyager... the can't be expected to keep up with what they write in previous episodes.
     
  7. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    I disagree. Since Kes leaves the ship before they encounter the Krenim she was never exposed to the radiation that made her jump back in time. So she didn't know about the Krenim so her warning dissapeared
     
  8. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Except she was. For whatever reason things played out differently after the reset button push for the Kes with the knowledge of the future. Heck maybe she subconsciously left because she didn't want to put up with all that crap. I mean we have an alternate reality version of Kim on the ship already, what's a little more muddying of the timeline?
     
  9. KaraBear

    KaraBear Captain Captain

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    Kim is not from an alternate reality. He was just a duplicate, same timelime same reality
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Annorax was altering the timeline continuously for 200 years from his perspective.

    (His weapon was targeting the same year for two centuries, because he was anchored to 2374 for 20 decades, with perhaps a little drift to explain why the badly written story seemed linear. He had not started to play with time in 2174, or his wife would be dead. Don't be a fucking moron.)

    We had little evidence to believe that Before and After had not HAPPENED until the episode before Year of Hell finished, which is an intermediate zone when we don't see where the THOUSANDS of different timelines created by Annorax play out and then become aborted and reset, rejiggered, start fresh and then again aborted, ad infinitum.

    200 years of this shit.

    We did not experience the first couple centuries of Year of Hell where Before and After had sometimes happened, and other times had not happened, depending on how Annorax molested time at any given moment.

    Although...

    Captain Chakotay had not encountered the Borg in Before and After, or at least got through the Northwest Passage unmolested without picking up a blonde hitch-hiker, and somehow made up the 10k light years Dark Kes gifted Voyager upon her departure, so that the Year of Hell happened approximately at the same time in both timelines.

    This is when you begin to wonder what the Queens time capsule broad cast in First Contact from her interplexing beacon had on the condition and girth of Borg Space, sure Annorax may have destroyed/neutered the Borg quite early in his experiments, and then brought them back considering the events of Scorpion which still had to happen after a fashion since Seven of Nine was part of Voyager's crew, but without the Future Queens help the Borg wouldn't have had the tech to bother 8472, even if there's no 8472 there's no North West passage, but if Ransom found a Wormhole that allowed him to skip Borg Space with complete ignorance maybe Captain Chakotay used the same hole?

    Here's the Rub.

    In any timeline where Kes warns Janeway about the Krenim, of which there would have been thousands, that creates a situation where Janeway is able to negotiate/outwit/survive/avoid the temporally native Krenim (Who are playthings to Annorax just like Janeway.) , so that she is beneath Annorax's attention and equally completely ignorant of Annorax and so eventually & unavoidably falls prey to a reset by Annorax's weapon.

    We saw a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the story.

    The Janeway entering Krenim Space at the Beginning of Year of Hell, after 200 years of Annorax fiddling with her, is not the Janeway at the end of Year of Hell entering Krenim Space who is a fresh faced virgin. The Janeway at the end of Year of Hell, after the destruction of Annnorax's weapon, may have, and most probably did experience Before and After which is why she didn't fly off her handle when she was asked to go around.
     
  11. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Forethough :wtf:

    Virtually none would be the honest answer, but that isn't just a fault of the VOY writers but of writers of shows in general. Sometimes they have no diea where they are going and make it up as they go along. This pparach can be painfully obvious or well done so that you think maybe they did have all this planned in advance.
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Non Sequitor, not Deadlock.

    With infinite possible timestreams to fall into, do you think it's realistic (cough!) that he found his way back to the very same exact timestream he left considering the inprecision of his tech?

    "Close enough"

    But a story about Kim discovering how this timestream (terminology used in the episode.) was slightly and minutely different form the one he called home would have been amusing.

    These two episodes are book ends.

    He Annoraxes the Universe because only he, the greatest hero in all the universes can save Janeway, but the little shit dies a couple month later because he's really a deluded wanker.

    Why not give Daniel Byrd a chance?

    Oh.

    Ego.
     
  13. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In Star Trek when the time gets altered the effects of the original timeline stay in the new timeline.

    I don't know from a production standpoint, but I believe (Based on vague memories of people telling me so) that Year of Hell was planned to be the end of third season cliffhanger. I guess if you want to resolve discrepancies you can say that Kes's memories of the future accelerated her transformation, and if you recall in The Gift her telekinesis saved Seven's life. So you could say in the original timeline, Kes never left, Seven died in The Gift, and the original Year of Hell took place in the original Krenim timeline before the first temporal inversion.
     
  14. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    At this point in the conversation, I prefer to pretend that Kes never existed. :cardie:
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    At what point in the conversation do you pretend that Kim doesn't exist?
     
  16. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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    I like Kes more than Seven.

    Kes felt like a real character, instead of a walking male teenage fantasy like Seven often did.
     
  17. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Nowhere, because I like Kim.

    To each their own. *shrug* I always found Kes monumentally boring and irritating.
     
  18. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If it weren't for that stupid 'sexiest man' list we would have gotten both Kes and Seven.
     
  19. You_Will_Fail

    You_Will_Fail Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's totally backwards.

    No matter how much you try and think about it, the only reason Kes's warning isn't referenced is because the writer's couldn't be bothered dealing with.
    Personally, I feel it would have been easy and the scene could have been awesome. They hear the name Krenim and Janeway orders them to vacate the region but then they're hit by the time wave and they're like "who are they??"
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I read that as Sexist Man List.

    Dirty glasses.

    But, it was a Sexiest PERSON List.

    And it's not that the writers couldn't be bothered, it's that they thought that it would confuse the stupid knuckle dragging American Audience who would turn the TV off in disgust because Star Trek is too complicated and intellectual.