Before & After/Year Of Hell relationship

Discussion in 'Voyager' started by JirinPanthosa, Dec 1, 2012.

  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In Futures End Janeway claims to have had no idea what her family was up to in 1996, however by the 6th season in the episode 11:59, Janeway sings loudly that her childhood hero has always been her grandmother many times removed Shannon O'Donnell who was an astronaut in 1999.

    No idea when they switched tracks for that time burp.
     
  2. YellowSubmarine

    YellowSubmarine Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Which makes the whole story one big meta-grandfather. It was a grandfather paradox in meta-time. So just to make this cute and neat story they implicitly introduced meta-meta-time. They didn't go back in time to change it, they went back in timeline changes and changed them.

    I think that the time ship was destroyed in one big plausibility explosion.
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If that was a possibility, DS9 would not have survived Terry Farrel's acting.
     
  4. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If they removed one super-special handgun no one had ever made before from time, then the one guy who invented it would simply not have been able to make it in the new timeline.
     
  5. Lord Manitou

    Lord Manitou Commander Red Shirt

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    Re:Year Of Hell where anything happens relationship

    Approximately the same thing happened in Parallax (just after Caretaker) where the major disruption finally expodes and the entire scene fades back to a time before the event. Sometimes I think Leonard Nimoy writes these paradoxes just to feel ahead of everybody.
    It wouldn't be too difficult to write a long list about the sameness of these time paradoxes (advanced machinery that gets powered and tried to the extreme,etc.) But one cannot disallow the fact that the whole event developed some type of consort whether real or virtual. Anything big powerful and complicated usually acquires, after awhile, some sort of thing to prove its placement in the time-space contiuum and long before the beginning of event is sparked off.
    Janeway must be very wise about these possibilies or she wouldn't give series of commands that would lead to the end of this bizarre performance.
     
  6. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Even though Year of Hell is interpreted as a reset, not all is the same going out as when going in. The Krenim commander in the little ship is aggressively hostile at the beginning of the story. After the final temporal incursion, his attitude is less tense, with a more formal tone in his initial contact advising Voyager to alter course from the disputed area. Janeway's reactions to his demeanor also differ.
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Why?

    The machine does not manipulate people telepathically.

    Besides, in the final bit we saw that he knew how to make the weapon and he was almost there. He was playing with temporal diagrams on his padd.

    So did the the weapon just remove 1 percent of how to make the weapon because it's a bastard?
     
  8. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    This thing was able to remove things entirely from the timeline, who knows it DOESN'T affect folks telepathically too?

    The last scene showed he was working on the equations, not that he got them right. Maybe the way the device worked WAS by altering his mind so he didn't know how to get it right this time around.
     
  9. Lord Manitou

    Lord Manitou Commander Red Shirt

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    The problem was, and about the only thing that made the ep., is Annorax couldn't get back, he couldn't get home, he couldn't return. If at the end they show him working on it again, and with some foreknowledge, it only means Janeway solved that problem for him. In the years that follow he might be effected by what the time machine already did.
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the years that follow, Annorax is assimilated by the Borg.

    So Anwar, when Chakotay tried to remove that asteroid, every one would forget that asteroids existed?

    It's a chain root of effect and cause.

    After "X" is removed by the weapon, the entire universe rushes to compensate for "X's" absence. the weapon is only responsible for the first domino, and after that they can only predict what happens to the rest of the dominoes, and not that well.
     
  11. exodus

    exodus Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ......or he just creates it again.
    He said he created as weapon to use on a Krenium enemy.
    Ep. ended with the Kernium still in dispute of territory.
    We see him still working on the equation, he didn't learn his mistake because it was Janeway that figured out getting rid of the ship would fix everything..not him.
    So what I saw was, just because he took a break with his wife, he still oneday would create that ship for the same reason.
    He was doomed to repeat time.
    He did believe time was punishing him.:lol:
    Maybe Annorax' punishment for being Ahab is to live the punishment of Sisyfus?
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    There was no memory retention of events, so no one learnt anything.

    Janeway was a *&^% to tell the other ships in her armada to turn off their temporal shields, and are we completely sure that they all did, because she was telling them to commit suicide to make way for temporal dopplegangers they didn't owe shit to.

    Someone still had to stop Annorax in the revirginized timeline, and they were idiots if they didn't plan for him to reinvent the weapon.
     
  13. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The episode was one huge push of the reset button with no consequences... again.

    It's implied that a sunny day and a wife with a pretty smile at the very least slow down Annorax long enough for Voyager to pass through. Even that really doesn't make sense though. When Annorax has said he's been at it for hundreds of years, it's obvious the vessel hasn't been experiencing time as normal, and it's implicated they can move forward and backward somehow, since he's manipulating the same people and events over and over again trying to produce a better result.

    So even if he was working on it while Voyager flew through and built it later, he's still fly it back to the "present" time setting of Year of Hell to start manipulating events as he wants them. And thus Voyager would be caught up in the mess, directly or not. And if destroying the timeship resets everything to how it happened before, why would his wife be changed to influence him not to finish the work as the ending implied?
     
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The weapon existed outside of time (but could return to real space whenever it felt like it.) which is why they didn't change when the universe was changed, because they were outside the universe.

    No one on the weapon got older since they were outside time.

    (Bad fake science)

    It's possible that some of the crew on the weapon who were too close to the core when it detonated were erased along with the raw materials of the weapon so that the new timeline wasn't completely like the virgin timeline before Annorax started played silly buggers.
     
  15. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah but even when they were "outside time" they were still setting courses and flying to other planets/places with a perceivable delay in getting there.

    I guess for a real cynical take, you could argue that the disintegration of his girl's hair was her being erased from time even as the machine blew up, and the girl you see at the end is someone else he ends up with instead, that stops him from building it. :p
     
  16. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Not just anyone could have been Lady MacBeth.
     
  17. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm going with my 'Before & After happened in the original unaffected timeline' theory. It helps me sleep at night.

    My interpretation of the ending is that time had changed so the timeship never existed. Perhaps in this timeline, because it never existed, he failed to invent it.

    Anyway, if Kes can move the ship 10,000 light years, why not 70,000?
     
  18. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    From big bang (multiple big bangs) to entropy, every universe that we saw in Year of Hell took place beginning to end. Annorax was destroying future history as much as the past. Just because Captain Chakotay made it past Krenim space like a champion, it doesn't mean that Anorax was not yet about to destroy that future and replace it with another one.

    After a universe normalized from a wrecking by the weapon, Annorax scans the universe past present and future to understand the state of the Empire and what he doesn't see is himself destroying time again in the relatively immediate future. the future must flow unto the end until it doesn't because as an agent outside of time he is not bound to any such continuity or predestination or paradoxes.

    Although I do think that the before and After timeline is the base line original universe however, the krenim were using temporal torpedoes which means that they were on their way to inventing all sorted of time technology that could be as dangerous to every one as Annorax's weapon.

    Although... Anroax would have noticed Kes and jumping about and had to deal with her since according to his book keeping Voyager was temporally inert and beneath their consideration.
     
  19. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The thing is, I think that last scene with Annorax was supposed to be set during his lifetime. As in, it was back 200 years ago when he was aging normally and was just a scientist. We just didn't have a "200 years ago" caption at the bottom of the screen to say so.
     
  20. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes Annorax had been on the weapon for 200 years out side time not ageing.

    But he was always trying to get his wife back.

    Do you think that he just wanted her grave?

    Or was the weapon constantly hovering over the year of hell for two hundred years?

    It's a fricking time machine.

    They can tell the passage of time to fuck off.

    They drift for while (because the writers were morons.) so it seems they are caught up by linear time to the outside observer, and then course-correct (which must be a real big deal because we never saw them do it) and the weapon is back at January 2373, because Annorax doesn't want to get his wife back when she's an old lady.