Discussion in 'Battlestar Galactica & Caprica' started by Agent Richard07, Feb 6, 2009.
what's wrong with this nerd?
I won't argue with the rest of your post concerning history. It's far more thought out and informed on the subject than anything I could put together at this point in my life and education.
I'm not sure where the allegation that people haven't noticed the US spending billions to kill people in wars (often against leftists) is directed, though. Many of these activities fall under the period of the Cold War, where it was our modus operandi to support right-wing dictators and the like against any movement that even smelled like "communism." Often at the expense of legitimate democracies.
The US isn't the sole perpetrator, either. When the European powers supposedly decolonized Africa, leaders like Lumumba who opposed western economic interests weren't tolerated. They were just labeled as "communists" and killed in favor of leaders more friendly to the west. But you know all this, probably better than I.
What I will respond to is the false claim that Zarek resorted to indiscriminate mass slaughter unprovoken by threats while disdaining any alternatives. He wanted Adama and Roslin dead, because they were the most likely to lead a viable movement against Zarek. He gave Adama a kangaroo court before sentencing. Roslin would have probably earned the same if she hadn't have escaped on board the Raptor and fled towards the base ship. The only people he orders outright killed are the quorum--an eleven member body (twelve counting the absent Lee). This only happens when they announce they won't support Zarek as President, or Gaeta as Admiral. Zarek doesn't have the resources to effectively imprison them, or torture them, so when they announce they're opposing him he orders them killed. Notice Gatea isn't even confident most of his soldiers will be able to execute Adama, even after he's been "legally" sentenced. He tells Narcho to only take his most trusted men, and of those, Captain Kelly can't bring himself to do it. Zarek might have two men to kill all of the quorum, but he doesn't have enough men to imprison them and torture them effectively. The Cylons can be imprisoned because his movement is essentially a movement against the Cylons--that's the one popular element he has on his side. Adama and his officers can be imprisoned because they've been going with the plan to work with the Cylons. But the quorum were opposing the Cylon plan all along--there's no legitimate pretense for most of the soldiers to hold them, or especially to torture them.
Anyone else who is killed is a result of violent clashes between mutineers and loyalists.
I disagree on the point that the leftist is only definable in terms of communism and socialism--those are two kinds of leftist politics, but I'd plot a wider spectrum of opinion than that. Communism and socialism are on the most extreme Left, to be sure. But when I talk about the Right, I'm generally including a wider ideology than just fascism.
Republicans call Democrats the Left precisely because they think it conjures up "socialism" and "communism" in the minds of voters. I'd like to hold onto the fantasy that voters aren't that stupid for a little bit longer. Yes, Democrats are far closer to the center than the left, but they still fall to the left of the spectrum in most books I've seen.
Yeah, that was one of the best parts.
Infraction for flaming. If you have need of discussing this, please contact me via PM
A clear and present flame = an infraction
It's good to get serious discussion going, and nuBSG is no stranger to that. However, let's reconnect with the episode as well, okay?
stj, although I don't disagree with you on your critique of anti-leftist revisionism, where was it indicated that Zarek was a leftist? He never really spouted much ideology, except for "Colonial Day," and what he said there couldn't easily be construed as "left" or "right," in that it's so vastly different from anything we've experienced.
He was always consistent about seeking power, but didn't seem to espouse a consistent political agenda.
Well he was certainly pro the death penalty and was pro secret tribunals as seen in "Collaborators" and that leans more towards a Bush side of thinking.
That was great! And good riddance to Gaeta - but Zarek should just have been shot in the face out of hand, or quietly disappeared- unlike Gaeta he's not military so shouldn't qualify for courtmartial and the firing squad. It gives him too much honour.
I don't think there's any honour in death by firing squad and to draw real world parallels, a number of countries use firing squads as a means of execution for criminals. The only possible difference can be just who makes up the firinq squad (police or military). As the marines are used for policing duties in the RTF that issue is also covered.
Yeah, because Communist governments have never held secret trials or caused thousands of people to disappear. Ever heard of China's execution busses?
Che' (That pop icon) comes to mind as well...
Oh, HELL yeah.
Well he is a hero of the resistance.
Death by Firing Squad is simply more dramatic.
Still wish Zarek had belted that out. I have to the writer credit for going for the ironic 'It stopped' though.
Yes but China is a terrible example. It's a dictatorship more than anything else, certainly not a communict country.
Um. They self-identify as Communist. They worked with Stalin's Comintern. Mao *led* a Communist revolution. Have you read "Mao"?
Have you ever seen a Communist state that *wasn't* a dictatorship? It goes hand-in-hand with how they work.
I for one am not convinced that Roslin or Adama cared about the legality of killing Zarek. I doubt that he or Gaeta got a trial -- they were probably both just sentenced to death by Adama after the coup failed.
Adama probably used the same rules that Cain did when trying Helo and Tyrol.
Yeah -- bullshit rules.
Heck yeah. Just watched it again, and right after that when Admiral Gravitas just had the posse forming around him when he was walking to the bridge, it was awesome.
Separate names with a comma.