Battlestar Galactica 4x13: "The Oath"

Discussion in 'Battlestar Galactica & Caprica' started by Agent Richard07, Jan 30, 2009.

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Grade the episode...

  1. Excellent

    82.4%
  2. Above Average

    13.0%
  3. Average

    3.1%
  4. Below Average

    0.8%
  5. Poor

    0.8%
  1. Lookingglassman

    Lookingglassman Admiral Admiral

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    DANG IT! I missed it. This stupid ice storm in KY knocked out my power last week and it just came back on today. My stupid computer is old and slow so trying to watch it online is a no go. I hope they show it again.
     
  2. Ethros

    Ethros Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Saw it a few days ago due to evil, sinister, nefarious methods, but I Sky+ed it, so I'll watch the Sky 1 showing later on
     
  3. Aragorn

    Aragorn Admiral Admiral

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    Sci Fi used to air it a few times after the original airing, but now the only other airing seems to be an hour later. They'll probably rerun the episodes after the whole thing ends, but you probably don't want to wait that long.

    Can you go to the library to watch?
     
  4. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What continually strikes me about all of this re the Cylons is that so one seems to have ever sat down with these reluctant allies and said, "Okay, tell us your side of the story. Where did you guys come from? Where is 'home'? Is there a Cylon planet? Why the decision to nuke us after 50 years?" It's one of the biggest holes in the story that these really stupidly obvious questions never seems to have been posed. Or have I missed something?
     
  5. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think you've touched on something with the use of the term "reluctant allies."

    I doubt that any of these folks have gotten to the point of frank talks about world-view and history. There's a lot that's tenative and touchy and probably still a great deal of hoarding of secrets.

    I'm far more surprised that Adama is as accepting of Tigh at this point than I am that the humans haven't gotten to know the Cylons particularly well. I'd be more interested in knowing how Adama came up with "invite our new allies along" for the search for a post-Earth home.
     
  6. chrisspringob

    chrisspringob Commodore Commodore

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    This is a plothole that goes as far back as Season 2, when Athena was slowly integrated into the crew. She presumably knows a lot re: what the Cylons are all about, but she seemingly never gave them any useful information. Same plothole exists on "Lost", where the castaways have made various alliances with members of "The Others", yet have never gotten much in the way of useful information out of them (Ross Douthat of The Atlantic lays this issue out more clearly than I could here: http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/03/losts_why_problem.php).

    In both cases, the "real world" explanation is pretty straightforward: The writers want to keep the mystery alive. If you introduce characters who have all the answers (or at least, many of the answers), then the only way to keep the mystery alive is to have everyone act in an implausibly incurious way. The writers prefer doing that to having scenes where the characters in the know lay out all the exposition for the characters who are out of the loop (and the audience).
     
  7. QCzar

    QCzar Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^Long-winded exposition can be both distracting and tiresome where it deviates from the primary narrative. We see this a lot in Star Trek, where our Federation officers sometimes spent several minutes going on and on about "you see, in the 24th century, we don't have money because blah, blah, frakking bluh..." every other episode.

    As for how it plays out on Galactica, in Athena's case, one has to remember that her primary motivation for remaining a Colonial officer isn't based on a hatred of her race (though I wonder sometimes :lol:), so much as her feelings for Helo and her desire not to have her daughter used as some kind of Cylon Messiah. We saw at the algae planet that her "loyalty" can turn real quick where her family is threatened. In fact, I suspect we may get something along these lines on Friday.

    Consequently, Adama and Helo may not be so interested in interrogating her. I admit, it's a flimsy but plausible explanation. Maybe she's just holding her cards close to her chest. It's possible that she's directly responsible for the attacks in some capacity. She was no sleeper, after all. And maybe the Old Man just can't handle having that dumped on his conscience after all the bullshit he has to put up with, so he doesn't dig.

    But it's probably in that back of both their minds. "Was she actually there, watching her people slaughter billions of mine? Can I really forgive her for that?" Who the frak could handle knowing that about their wife? Probably better not to know.

    As others have pointed out, the rebels (and Caprica Six, for that matter) probably don't trust the humans as far as they can throw them (out an airlock?). The Fantastic Four obviously lack detailed enough information about pre-war Cylon history to offer any insight and are probably honestly not all that interested (esp in Ander's and Tigh's cases). What Tory knows by now is anyone's guess, but she'll probably keep as tight lipped about it as the rebels.

    Lastly, I honestly don't think most of the humans care. Of all of the main characters, I can only see Helo really probing for answers. Most of the others seem too preoccupied (planning mutinies, maybe?) or self-absorbed to care about Cylon history. In the same way, most Americans don't care about the origins/motivations of Jihadis so much as they care about killing/detaining them. So this lack of inquisitiveness is both understandable and realistic.
     
  8. Marcus Porcius Cato

    Marcus Porcius Cato Commander Red Shirt

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    that was long ago to these people
     
  9. Pindar

    Pindar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sky often seem to have problems with sound, this was a great episode that had the sound fucked up all the way through.

    It was like the picture was running at a different rate to the sound.
     
  10. Rii

    Rii Rear Admiral

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    It's probably more recent for them than us. :lol:
     
  11. archeryguy1701

    archeryguy1701 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Don't say that! If we keep drawing attention to that fact, it could be another 3 years before they let us see the series finale!!! :eek:
     
  12. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Dramatically speaking, Adama is the military. As the CO, his position is the right military position. One detail that emerges from the interesting lists provided, is the extremely high proportion of Cylons or Cylon mates amongst the loyalists. That does make the mutiny something of an assault on the Cylons, a resumption of the war now that the Cylons have begun to surrender. Another, as correctly stated, is the odd coalition between die hard military and anti-military (i.e., leftist) civilian elements. I don't see how that refutes my belief the story logic of the mutiny is twisted. But I also see that there is now some discussion of this point and its related aspects. Detailed knowledge of this particular episode would be useful at this point. But I don't think I could endure the pain for the sake of adding further.

    Last, BSG fans do hate science. The Cylons download their minds but don't even have a transmitter! Cylons have an orgasmometer lighting up their spine but people can't tell them from other humans! It takes True Luv for Cylons to conceive! They don't remember that it takes plants to have oxygen in the air! They think there's air in space! It should be habitual for BSG fans to sheepishly admit they have to overlook horrible foolishness to get into the show. The indignant protests at a simple statement of the obvious show an unthinking insolence that would be unbelievable if it wasn't there in the thread.
     
  13. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Moderator

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    Clearly they have a transmitter of some kind. Just not an obvious one. There's a range limit on resurrection.

    They pretty much dropped that after the miniseries and have been trying to pretend it never happened. Rather like the "three shots disintegrates" thing on Stargate.

    Not worth responding to obviously false claims.
     
  14. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    Why resort to true premises when you can perpetually repeat false ones such as these?

    The Cylon's glowing spine is pretty much regretted by everyone involved. It was only seen once in the miniseries and once in the first season. Afterwards it was summarily dropped. Moore (and others on the writing staff) admit it was a stupid idea that looked cool but made little scientific sense, thus it was discarded. The novelization rationalizes the glow by saying that it's only visible on the infra-red spectrum.
     
  15. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    I must be one of the only people who didn't think the 3 shots thing was a bad idea.

    As for the glowing spine, well, Boomer's spine glowed red in one of the first season episodes (but if I recall correctly, that does not appear in all versions of the episode, just the R1 DVDs or something).

    And that would have worked just fine if they hadn't later decided to make the Skinjobs practically identical to humans. Six's quote in the miniseries was, "I'm so hot." I took the glowing spine meaning that some piece of technology was getting really hot as a result of the emotional/physical stimuli of sex.
     
  16. MadBaggins

    MadBaggins Captain Captain

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    I don't understand how Racetrack could be a party to evil. It made me sick. :(

    I think she's going to try to kill Kara in a revenge attack for what happened to Skulls. But Kara will shoot Racektrack in the eyes. :(
     
  17. Ethros

    Ethros Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well I watched my Sky+ recording. The "dalek voices" thing only happened for about 2 minutes, and apart from that it was fine.

    It could have been something to do with the weather affecting the transmision; happens now and again with Sky if the weather's really bad
     
  18. Ensign_Redshirt

    Ensign_Redshirt Commodore Commodore

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    First, what is it with this "the Cylons have surrendered" crap? There's a more or less shaky cease-fire with one faction of Cylons. How's this a surrender when a faction of Cylons doesn't see it as its priority anymore to exterminate mankind? Opposition to genocide equals surrender? Well, the Cavils and other radical Cylons would probably make such a claim.

    Then again, the Cylon rebels aren't even explicitly opposed to genocide... they just don't care about mankind one way or the other. Their original position was that why want to be left alone. This refers to the other Cylons as well the humans.

    However, since the Colonials are the ones who started making concessions to their former enemies you could argue that the humans are about to "surrender" to the Cylons. I guess that's what Zarek and Gaeta would claim. It's the Colonials who wanted an alliance with the Cylon rebels, because they've got those superior FTL drives (and maybe because the Cylons can procreate with humans and it's a way to get around the imminent extinction). You could just as well try to argue now that the Cylons stand for the Nazis and that Admiral Adama is Marshal Petain. Would make about the same amount of sense.

    But you're right about one thing... the mutiny is indeed an assault on the Cylons. Or call it progrom if you want. After all, one of the first things the mutineers did was to round up all Cylons. For me it's not exactly a very astonishing or mysterious thing that the opposition to the mutiny consists in large parts of Cylons and people close to individual Cylons.



    Then again, Baltar's cult is opposed to the mutiny and they seem to be pretty pacifist and anti-war. And then there are those Civilian ship captains who tried to reach Roslin after her anti-mutiny speech. So, on the "pro-Cylon" side we have military personnel and civilians (even pacifists) and on the "anti-Cylon" side we have military personnel and civilians (even anti-military government officials). There's a split through almost every "demographic group" in the fleet. So your argument only holds until this point.

    Also, those "anti-military" government officials don't want to continue the war with the Cylons. It's just so that they don't want to have something to do with them either. They're opposing the alliance, but they're also supporting to continue the flight from the Cylons. In fact, they want the same thing the Cylon rebels orignally wanted: Parting ways.

    I would also like to challenge this generally negative view of the military you seem to have. Military officers aren't necessarily warmongers. In fact, we can assume that a lot of them want to fight as few wars as possible. The warmongers can often be found among armchair quarterbacking politicians who didn't even serve in the military or at least didn't see any combat during their military service. I'm talking about the so-called chickenhawks, the Dick Cheneys.

    I would also the question the notion that Adama is being depicted as always "right". His attempted coup against President Roslin in late season 1 wasn't portrayed in a positive light, for instance. At least this wasn't how I saw it. He crossed the line there. The one who was right there is Lee Adama. Sometimes William Adama can really be a dick... as do many other characters on the show.

    Admiral Adama's current behavior probably makes sense though. He has always been described as being "weak" (you could also say affectionate or loyal) when it comes to the officers serving under his command. He admitted that himself as far back as Season 1. He was also seen this way by Admiral Cain. Colonel Tigh is a Cylon, so Adama becomes a "Cylon lover" as the mutineers would argue... well, he didn't become one until having a nervous breakdown, but in the end he became one. He's not so naive as to fully trust any Cylon, particularly not the Cylon Baseship crew. But he trusts Tigh, Tyrol, and Athena. And then you've come so far that you can trust a Cylon, that you can at least consider coming to some form of mutual agreement with other Cylons... without fully trusting them, of course.
     
  19. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Racetrack isn't evil, she just has a different point of view. Roslin led them to a wasteland and now she is willing to just give up and die, while Adama's decisions are questionable and his leadership style has proven disastrous. The only reason I don't support the mutiny is because as an audience member I am privy to information about the Cylons which the crew of the ship are not, and the fact that I don't trust Zarek.

    However, I do trust Gaeta and the real power in the fleet has always been concentrated in Galactica's CIC, not on Colonial One. I could easily support Gaeta's mutiny if I was in Racetrack's shoes.
     
  20. EliyahuQeoni

    EliyahuQeoni Commodore Commodore

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    This is very true. Most military officers don't enjoy war, they see it as a necessary evil that must be engaged in to preserve their way of life. A good real world example of this is General Ulysses Grant who, in his memoirs, stated that he felt that the two wars he fought in--The Mexican War & the Civil War--were completely avoidable, but were made necessary by politicians on both sides. He dutifully fought when the wars started, because at that point they were inevitable, but he would have preferred peaceful alternatives. I would imagine Adm Adama feels much the same way.