Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Allyn Gibson, Mar 28, 2012.

  1. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I've read Rich Johnston's review of issue #1 twice now.

    I can't really disagree with it.

    And I was aware of Bendis' reputation for decompressed/writing-for-the-trade storytelling. It's well known that he took six issues of Ultimate Spider-Man to do what Stan Lee and Steve Ditko did in fifteen pages in Amazing Fantasy #15. :)
     
  2. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ My apologies...wasn't sure what you knew or didn't about his rep, I have been a fan of Bendis and like what he is doing with Ultimate Spider-Man right now, you can tell he has a passion for Miles Morales, but in the 616 Universe I feel like he's almost "phoning it in" or lost his interest right now. I don't disagree with Rich's take for once either. Can't wait for Hickman and the other writers arcs to start lol.
     
  3. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Read the issue today and my issue was mainly Bendis' writing. I agree with the issues that both Allyn and Rich brought up in their reviews of the issue. I still remain excited about the book, but am really looking forward to the other writers on the issue. Bendis can not write 616 Spidey without having be immature and nothing more than comedic fodder. There is almost no point on having Peter on the team any more.
     
  4. Saga

    Saga Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    i completely agree with you about Spidey. compare Spidey in AvX or X-Sanction to Spidey in the current Amazing arc. almost like two different characters.
     
  5. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yep. Slott and Hickman both have written Spider-Man differently, Slott though has started improve and evolved since taking over the book. Hickman has written Peter with the respect he deserves and hasn't forgotten that while he is a funny character, he's also a brilliant scientist that Tony Stark once made his protege, and that Reed Richards has been impressed with. Bendis writes 616 Peter as almost a caricature. As a huge Spidey fan I find this really irritating. I hope this isn't how he writes 616 Spidey in the upcoming "Spider-Men" because if so, I'm going to be really disappointed. 616 Spidey is not Ultimate Peter.
     
  6. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Bendis's decompression has veered to the point of parody imo.
     
  7. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Then how do you explain his inability to write the Avengers characters. :p
     
  8. Saga

    Saga Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    :lol:
     
  9. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    @NerysMyk...I'm baffled at that too :)
     
  10. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Ok, I wanted a chance to re-read this before posting my thoughts.

    Yeah, Bendis' de-compression strikes again. I agree with Admiral_Young about Bendis, I AM a fan. Really. But this is getting ridiculous. And Allyn Gibson's comparison to Justice League #1 was spot on.

    The characterization of Hope was waaay off and it was irksome. But there was one bit that I liked-- when Hope asked if this is how Professor X trained him, and Cyclops answered, "absolutely".
    That was actually my first reaction as well (and I even said that he was being a bit of a jerk in the other thread), but upon a re-read and remembering the ending of the recently concluded Avengers: X-Sanction, I can forgive it. You see, Cyclops knew this was coming. In X-Sanction, Cable showed Cyclops a vision of a wasteland future and told Cyclops that this is what would happen if he let the Avengers take Hope. And he definitely told Cyclops that war with the Avengers was coming. But they convey none of that here, not even on a text page, which is unfortunate for new readers. (Maybe if the story wasn't so de-compressed, they could've told more story.)

    This was a problem I had with Schism as well. It seemed totally OOC for me that Wolverine, the man who trained Kitty Pryde to be a ninja at 14 and similarly took Rogue, Jubilee and Armor under his wing, would suddenly be so opposed to letting the older, Danger Room trained kids fight the Sentinel on their own free will. Now, as I later came to find out, this all spun-out of recent developments in Wolverine's solo book, where he killed several of his own illegitimate children before actually finding out that they were his kids. O.K. Fine. That explained a lot. But none of this was brought up in Schism itself. Annoying. :scream:

    It reminds me of what authors always say in the Lit. forum-- you shouldn't have to read book A to understand book B, because book B should recap all of the pertinent info from book A that the reader requires. Story-telling fail. :mad:

    Not so much the Phoenix Force by itself, but the PF in conjuncture with Hope. This again goes back to what I said about not giving the reader all of the info. After the Scarlet Witch all but wiped-out Mutant-kind, there weren't any mutant births for two years-- until Hope. Hope was the target of every anti-mutant group in existence, including those who had access to information from the future. She was later taken into the future by Cable for her protection. Cable raised Hope, and brought her back to the present when she felt that she was ready. Upon her return and the activation of her powers, new mutants started registering on Cerebra again. Seven, so far, and they all have required Hope's touch in order to stabilize their mutation. So, the X-Men have every reason to believe that she is the future of mutantkind.

    Random thoughts--

    Wolverine might say that Scott is too close to the Phoenix situation to impartial, but the same definitely holds true of Wolverine himself. Cap should have consulted with Scott as well before just unilaterally making the decision and bring the full-force of the Avengers down on Utopia. Cap's "experts" may have given him some bad advice.

    I loved the grin on Namor's face when he said that Cyclops was going to force Cap's hand. Seems like he's ready for a little "Imperious Rex-ing".:lol:

    Interesting that there was not a single sign of Storm in this issue. Not even on the battle-lines page, where she should be next to Wolverine and Beast. In this un-lettered preview page from New Avengers #24, we see bailing on the Avengers in what would appear to be the pre-mission briefing on the Utopia invasion. If the Avengers somehow kept her from returning to Utopia or warning Cyclops, then that's going to put me more in the X-Men camp than I am currently already leaning.

    Overall, like Rich said in the review, not a great comic, but not really a bad one either. I am still looking forward to seeing how this all plays out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2012
  11. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It has been interesting that since Storm has joined "Avengers" back I think with issue 17 or 18 she has done pretty much nothing. I almost think this was done now just to have another X-Men on the team.

    Namor had that grin though because he has first hand knowledge of how Captain America thinks, same with Scott now. He knew the inevitable conclusion. Imperius Rex indeed!!!

    I do see the point earlier about both men acting like jerks, really though that is the point I'm afraid. This and Schism have been about opposing view points. As I have attempted to explain (badly I guess) Scott's problem is that he has become so damn stubborn and one sided on his viewpoint that he has begun to ignore everyone, and I do mean everyone. He's almost a borderline villain here. I honestly would not be shocked if Cyclops became the next big Marvel villain out of this event. I know that would piss off Cyclops fans but it seems to me since Marvel refuses to continue evolving his character beyond this "General" persona of his that is the only logical conclusion. I've also seen some speculation that Scott could die at the end of AVX. I honestly don't know what is going to happen at the end of this thing, and this is one of the things that excites me about it.
     
  12. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, no, I got your point and even agree with it. I still think "borderline villain" is a stretch. Honestly, if Scott is a border-line villain, then how would you describe, say, the Punisher? Or even Wolverine at times? Iron Man during his "Armor Wars"? (Or even "Civil War") The tunnel-vision thing is indeed bad, but hardly villainous at this point. Obsessive, I grant you, but there has been no actual villainy yet.

    And let's remember acouple of things that probably fuel his tunnel-vision-- for the most part in all this, he has been right. He was right that Hope was important and must be protected at all costs, despite the doubts of his peers. He was right that Hope's return would re-ignite the mutant race, albeit at a slower than prefered pace. And in X-Sanction, he has seen the future and what he believes to be the consequenses of failure.

    I mean, it's pretty obvious that Scott's being set up for some kind of fall, I just object to the "villain" label.
     
  13. Mr Light

    Mr Light Admiral Admiral

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    WHAT?! I didn't read that anywhere! That totally changed Wolvie's motivations, but they've never mentioned that one in Schism or "Wolverine and the X-Men"! That is annoying.

    I would not mind Cyclops dying at the end of AVX, I really don't like where they've taken the character since Grant Morrison started it all.
     
  14. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's exactly it. The old rule of thumb -- "Every issue is someone's first issue" -- just doesn't seem to apply any more to comics.

    But since this is being written for the trade, the kind of backstory that you just gave will be given somewhere later down the road because the story can be paced differently. Imagine that Cap's been captured, he says, "I thought I was making a reasonable request. We know the Phoenix is coming. We know it wiped out a planet. Can't you see the bigger picture?" And then Cyclops could fill in the backstory of X-Sanction. Suddenly you have the reveal -- Cyclops isn't being an unthinking jerk, he just knows more than Captain America.

    Trade pacing is bad. :)
     
  15. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    The Wolverine solo books I've kind of ignored, even with the main one written by Aaron. I kind of look at them as almost self contained entities.
     
  16. Saga

    Saga Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You'd think Cap would consult with someone who has Phoenix Force experience. Like say, Rachel Summers.
     
  17. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'd talk to Rachel then talk to Logan if I were Cap going to the school. One of the few things I did like about the book was Steve's conversation with Logan. Very different from the one he had with Scott, who has become bullish. The look on Logan's face after Cap asked him if he could count on him was interesting. I wonder if they'll pull a Spider-Man on Logan and have him switch sides? This is an interesting conundrum. Logan has been all about loyalty to the mutant community, even with the Schism, yet he has also had a long loyalty to Captain America, a man whom he respects and admires. Spider-Man switched sides in Civil War because he felt in part he'd been lied to and had secrets kept from him by Tony and the others, men he respected and trusted. Logan's loyalty to the mutant community could come into play here at some point, same with Storm's, especially since they're both Avengers who are on the separate sides of the Schism coin. I've seen it speculated that the Schism could end during this event as well which would be too bad.
     
  18. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yup. The Mongrels. And apparently, the end of the "Mongrels" arc syncs up perfectly with the begining of "Schism". Given that The Mongrels arc, Schism and WatXM all have the same writer, you would think that there would be some acknowledgement of it somewhere in the narrative.

    Agreed. There is just too much frickin' Wolverine out there.
     
  19. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Vice Admiral Admiral

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  20. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Looks like Storm has made her decision early, and Carol is the voice of reason in the room. Her assessment of Scott is correct. He isn't going to just let them extract Hope given all he has done to project her lol. I really can't stand Bendis right now. I'm not surprised he was named one of the writers given his status as an Architect and the fact that he has seeded how we have got to this point so far, but I'm becoming more and more annoyed with his work.
     

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