Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes season 2 discussion thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Turtletrekker, Mar 22, 2012.

  1. Saga

    Saga Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    thought the first ep of Season 2 was a lot of fun. would have liked more from Doom, but the poker game and Tony/Reed interaction at the beginning was great.
     
  2. jep316

    jep316 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I like the premiere of both new shows Spider-man and Avengers season2 though I could do without all the anime style cutaways on Spider-man and the little special features of the whole Marvel Universe block it just disrupts the action too much.

    Also I don't think the series are conected there are too many difference,SM takes place in a version of the Ultimate Universe while Avengers is a variation of the Main Marvel Universe 616.
     
  3. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    So they're doing the Secret Invasion storyline, and so far we know of two Skrull impostors among the heroes. I suspected Sue as soon as Reed said he felt she was neglecting him for a change.

    I've just been watching the '90s Fantastic Four cartoon on Netflix (it's hidden away under the listing for the '90s Iron Man series -- the streams actually contain the entire Marvel Action Hour package of both shows back-to-back, though only the IM episode is listed), so it's weird getting used to new voices for the FF. Still, Dee Bradley Baker strikes me as a pretty good choice for Reed. He's good at sounding professorial. (And is Fred Tatasciore still playing the Thing as he did in the show a few years back? Sounded like it. Which means he's playing both sides of the Thing-Hulk feud.)

    I loved it that Janet had the fearlessness to point out to Dr. Doom's face that he's wearing a skirt.


    Not quite. Despite its title, Ultimate Spider-Man is creating its own continuity which draws on elements of both the 616 and Ultimate universes combined with original elements as the creators see fit.

    http://www.newsarama.com/tv/ultimate-spider-man-seagle-kelly.html
    By the same token, Avengers, while drawing largely on 616, also incorporates some ideas from Ultimate, like a black Nick Fury. Pretty much all the Marvel screen adaptations these days draw liberally on both universes. There are a lot of Ultimate elements in the movies -- not just Fury, but the Hulk being an offshoot of the supersoldier program, Galactus being a swarm entity, Spider-Man's powers coming from a genetically engineered spider rather than an irradiated one, etc.

    Which only makes sense, because the Ultimate comics and the movies/shows both have the same motivation to make changes, i.e. to update the stories and get away from some of the problems of the originals, like a lack of diversity, the treatment of radiation as magic, etc.
     
  4. Ian Keldon

    Ian Keldon Fleet Captain

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    ^It's too bad Marvel refuses to credit the audience with enough intelligance to handle having the real Nick Fury in a project for once.\

    Nope, gotta spoon-feed the dunderheads their Samuel L Fury just so they "match" the movies...
     
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    You want intelligence? Here's one of the most intelligent things ever said:

    "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." -- Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

    The content of Nick Fury's character is the same regardless of his complexion or whether he has hair (and the version of Fury in Avengers: EMH and Wolverine and the X-Men is a mix of both versions, African-American but with a full head of hair and gray temples like the 616 version). And I think intelligent viewers would not find it desirable to perpetuate the lack of ethnic diversity in the '60s Marvel universe.
     
  6. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That was a lot of fun-- A good old-fashioned super-hero team-up, heavy on the "smash". The FF was spot-on, and I loved the interactions between Hulk and Thing. I am going to assume that we will be seeing Doom again as the "Secret Invasion" storyline progresses.

    Did anyone else catch the "update" of the Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends Dr. Doom ep, "The Fantastic Mr. Frump" following the episode? High-larious!
     
  7. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Regarding Spider-Man...there is no shared continuity between this and "Ultimate Spider-Man" as far as I know and Spidey was teased as far back as last year's SDCC, I think it was mentioned by someone else in the original thread for the show as well. It looks like I'm going to have to start watching this show again!
     
  8. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You say this, but during the casting for the Avatar: The last airbender movie, you were throwing a fit on this very subforum because the actors chosen were caucasian and not the races from the animation series.

    You throw stones while living in a glass house.
     
  9. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^Not sure what the correlation there is. The black Nick Fury is not a creation of the movies, it's from the "Ultimate" line of comics, from which the movies have borrowed very heavily, so it does come from the source material. Besides, there is really nothing intinsic about the modern Nick Fury that states he must be played by a white man. If they were doing the WW2 "Sgt. Fury" version of character, then race might be an issue, but as long as the character is well-written and portrayed, I wouldn't care what race of actor portrayed him in the modern context. Hell, one of the only good parts of the Daredevil movie was casting Michael Clarke Duncan as Wilson Fisk.

    The Last Airbender, on the other hand is specifically portrayed as taking place in a culture with asian influences, asian names, and asian people. So the casting of caucasians in the starring roles is a bit more glaring in that instance, and was basically just pulled out of M. Night Shalayman's ass without any regard to the source material.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2012
  10. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Right. It's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy; the creators of the Ultimate comics wanted to base their version of Fury on Samuel L. Jackson, and as a big comics fan, he gave them the rights to use his likeness in exchange for the first crack at playing the character if he were ever in a movie (or something like that).


    Sure, in real life, an African-American wouldn't have been allowed in combat in WWII, but then, in real life, a soldier from WWII wouldn't have had his aging artificially slowed so he'd still be young and vigorous in the 2010s. So one shouldn't demand absolute realism anyway.

    And there is precedent, going back to the very beginning of the Nick Fury character. The Howling Commandos were shown as an integrated unit including the African-American Gabe Jones from the very first issue of Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos in 1963. So in the Marvel Universe, the armed forces were integrated years sooner than they were in real life.


    Actually that was Michael Clarke Duncan.

    Colorblind casting in superhero movies goes all the way back to Billy Dee Williams as Harvey Dent in Batman (1989). Lois & Clark cast Sherman Helmsley as the Toyman, not to mention the half-Japanese Dean Cain as Superman. Smallville had a black Pete Ross and J'onn J'onzz and a half-Chinese Lana Lang (well, the actress if not the character). The Middleman cast a Latina actress as Wendy Watson, who in the comics was a redhead who didn't speak a word of Spanish.


    Actually I can somewhat forgive it there, since from what I read, they did sincerely try colorblind casting -- they opened it to candidates of any ethnicity, chose what they considered the best people for the lead roles, and then cast the other roles to match the leads' ethnicities. So we had a Caucasian Water Tribe but ethnically mixed Air Nomads, South Asian Fire Nation, and Asian/African Earth Kingdom. Still diverse, just differently so (and it would've become more so if there'd been sequels and Azula, Toph, etc. had come aboard). Although it's true that they would've probably had an easier time finding good Asian lead actors if they'd done their principal casting someplace other than Texas. And the actors they did cast weren't all that good, so I wonder if they really did make the best choices. It is possible there was some pressure from executives to cast white leads, but I think the worst Shyamalan deserves blame for is not pushing back hard enough against that pressure, or simply not picking very good actors. (Well, at least where the casting is concerned. The biggest thing he deserves blame for is thinking he was qualified to write the script himself.)

    But really, if finding the most talented actor means changing the ethnicity of a character in an adaptation, so be it. Strict adherence to the source material shouldn't matter, because an adaptation is not supposed to be exactly like its source; it's a new work inspired by the source but telling the story in a new and distinct way. And the decisions about that work should be based on what's best for that work. So they can take you in a different direction from the original.
     
  11. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    To be specific Mark Millar is a huge fan of Sam Jackson (Sam didn't know until afterwards I believe but liked it a lot)...and he based the other "Ultimates" characters on various actors and actresses as well. In the first arc there is even a discussion among them who they would want playing them in a film. I forget who they suggest for Bruce, but they were making fun of him.
     
  12. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know if you misstated that or not, but that's incorrect. African American men were indeed allowed into combat during World War II. The 92nd Infantry Division was composed mainly of African American soldiers (with white senior officers, of course) and saw heavy action in Italy. The 93rd ID was another African American unit, and they fought in the Pacific. And of course there were also the Tuskegee Airmen.

    The Samuel L. Jackson version of Nick Fury still could have served in World War II, but unless he was part of another special unit like the Howling Commandos, he probably would have been with the 92nd or a fictional African American unit. Then again, in Captain America: The First Avenger, they showed many African American soldiers integrated with the white soldiers, so like you said, there is a precedent there.
     
  13. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Ultimate Fury did serve in World War II in the retconned history for the Ultimate Verse in "Ultimate Origin".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_Nick_Fury

    As for MCU Fury, I believe we're supposed to be learn a bit more about Fury in "Avengers" as well. Or at least that was the early plan. Not sure if Joss revised this plan when he took over the script writing duties.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2012
  14. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    D'OH!!:alienblush: :scream:
    Fixed.
     
  15. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    You're right; in my haste, I did misspeak. What I meant was that they weren't integrated with white soldiers like Gabe Jones was in the Sgt. Fury comic and Captain America: The First Avenger, or as Nick Fury's father Jack was in the Avengers: EMH WWII flashbacks.
     
  16. Skywalker

    Skywalker Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I haven't seen you make many flubs like that, so I figured that was the case. :techman:
     
  17. TemporalFlux

    TemporalFlux Commodore Commodore

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    Culture does affect a person, though; if that were untrue, then black comedians would meet silence in response to their impersonations of how white people act. Instead, we all laugh because we know there is a difference and the exaggeration of that difference is good for a laugh.

    if we were all so interchangeable that we need only put on make-up to be a new race, then we truly would lose our character. Our differences should be celebrated and not homogenized.

    That said, the black Nick Fury has shown me that Fury probably should have been black in the first place. It works; and the white Fury now comes across to me as the cheaper version. Of course, it doesn't help that I think about David Hasselhoff whenever I see white Fury.
     
  18. Admiral_Young

    Admiral_Young Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ^ That image should be erased if/when we get the promised Sam Jackson "Nick Fury:Agent of Shield" film that is in development right now and that he himself has said is coming and probably part of his nine film deal :)
     
  19. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    All good points, but neither Fury is real. The role they play is the tough as nails military man turned superspy. That's their character.
     
  20. TemporalFlux

    TemporalFlux Commodore Commodore

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    I'm sorry, friend; but that's just a description and not a character. Character is nuance; it's not just "I wear a white hat so I'm a good guy.". The Sam Jackson Nick Fury is a different character from David Hasselhoff Nick Fury. They both have the same exact description on paper; both have this same "content of character" you mention; but they are not the same. Are you trying to argue they are the same?

    Yes; Nick Fury is not real; but part of story telling is to convince us they are real. If we can not become somehow engaged, then what's the point?