Avengers 2 News, Rumors, Etc. Pictures until release...

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Flying Spaghetti Monster, Aug 7, 2012.

  1. RoJoHen

    RoJoHen Awesome Premium Member

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    Reading Shakespeare is significantly more difficult that watching it. When you have actors speaking the lines in the context of a scene, it's amazing how easy it is to comprehend. It might take a few minutes to get used to it, but once you are, it can be incredibly entertaining (particularly his comedies).
     
  2. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah. Honestly, I was amazed how much I enjoyed it once I got used it.
    And now that I've seen that clip from Much Ado, I'm going to have to finally watch the whole movie sometime soon.
     
  3. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, I tried to read just the left part (the part you quoted) before clicking on the link and looking at the translation. I had absolutely no idea what was going on. The translation was dry, but I actually understood what was happening, and I really don't get how the Shakespeare segment meant what it translated to at all (and that section seemed relatively tame). After a few minutes I can kind of see it, but at that rate it would take me half a year to figure out even part of one of Shakespeare's plays, and I'd probably only barely get the gist.

    I also watched some of the Much Ado About Nothing clip. If I'd only seen the actors in that clip alone, i'd assume that Denisof and Acker have no chemistry or acting ability, which the TV show Angel definitely disproves. The scene was very awkward, and the actors were trying to perform lines that just don't work, and could be said a lot better in actual modern English. I also have no real idea what happened. Acker's character seemed mad at Denisof, but she wasn't clear why. There may have been some guy she disliked, and she might have wanted Denisof to do something about it, but exactly what that was I couldn't figure out. She may also have a cousin involved. Overall, it was a mess, and like I said before the acting was very awkward. I don't blame the actors, they're great, the material is just not great, almost like acting/performing (along with language) has changed in the last few centuries.

    ts just too obtuse and confusing for me. Its written using a variation of english that is about as far away from our own as you can get without it being just a whole other language that just shares some words, and the lines when performed just make the actors come off as very stilted. I could watch a completely foreign film at get the gist of it quicker, and it probably wouldn't feel awkward like that clip did. To me, its just a way of doing things that should have been left in the past. Update the language to 2014 English, and I'd give it a watch/read. As it is, with reading Shakespeare i'd probably have a less frustrating time of it it if it was written in wingdings (but in modern style), and a movie would just be like watching a foreign film they didn't bother to translate.,
     
  4. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    This is English as far away as you can get without it being a whole other language:

    [yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE0MtENfOMU[/yt]

    Shakespeare is often no worse than Australian in its strangeness.
     
  5. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, I can generally understand Australians, but every place has dialects that are hard to understand, but they're usually in specific areas. I could probably find places in the southern US with people I could barely understand, too. But, they'd still be easier to understand than stuff like

    or

    Heck, I saw the translation of the second quote, and even the translation doesn't make much sense :wtf: Its fine if people like it, I'm just saying that its got to take specific people, who are really into literary/performance history, to be able to translate that kind of language. If someone wanted to make a version the average person could understand, I bet they could translate it, but they haven't (I've always kind of assumed its some kind of snob thing, that if you can't understand it in the original klingon they don't want you to hear the story). Like I've said, if someone ever tries to make an adaptation for people that don't have the ability to translate a practically foreign language, I'd probably look at it. But its probably too much of a fancy person thing for that to happen, which is fine. While I'd be interested in seeing understandable adaptations of some of Shakespeare's stuff, its not like its something I'll really miss if it doesn't happen :shrug:
     
  6. Masiral

    Masiral Captain Captain

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    kirk55555, could you please explain what you mean by modern English?
     
  7. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^It's what he talks.
     
  8. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, its how we're talking now. I don't see how its hard to explain. Its how people speak and write English in modern times. I have no real idea when you'd say it "started", I mostly go by if I can easily understand what people wrote/said.

    Or, to use Shakespeare as an example, no one in the real world in 2014 speaks like this

    Its that simple. Its the way people speak and write in the real world of 2014. I'd also say its any English that's easily understandable to average English speakers in 2014 without the person having to spend time deciphering what was said. There are various levels, of course. Some things are between Shakespeare and modern times. For example, I can understand what people like, say, ben franklin wrote, but its not exactly modern. Mark twain had the style of his time, but I'd say when it comes to understanding his work its probably what I'd classify as "modern" English.

    Its not hard to get. If the average person, not Literary or Shakespeare snobs, can understand something without spending an inordinate amount of time deciphering ancient phrases and completely bonkers sentence structure, its probably more modern English. If the average person can read a line and understand it immediately, its probably modern English. There are exceptions, but its not hard to get.
     
  9. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    No Fear Shakespeare sucks. I hate it. Like AJ said, it takes the fun out of the language. More importantly, it removes any room for interpretation. And that's the whole effing point.
     
  10. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well, I haven't seen any of your posts read like

    But, maybe you save those "real English" posts for forums I don't frequent :vulcan:

    Seriously, its hilarious how people deny the fact that Shakespeare is very hard to understand for a lot of people, while speaking normal English themselves. If it was so easy or normal, why aren't you writing like him? Because NO ONE talks or write likes that anymore unless they are specifically trying to copy that style, because its not how people communicate in English nowadays.

    Seriously, I'm done with this conversation. If I want Shakespeare I'll read stuff with modern writers adapt elements into their stories. I'm not saying you can't enjoy it, but pretending its something that is easily understood is ridiculous, and at this point I'm just getting beat up by Shakespeare snobs. I get it, you like your ancient plays. Good for you, I wish you nothing but happiness while enjoying your ancient plays.

    Well, I personally prefer my reading to be pretty specific. what's the point of reading a story whose language is so obtuse that you have to interpret what the words on the page even mean? My only problem with No Fear Shakespeare is that it doesn't actually translate that well, because it tries to stick too close to the material, basically clearing up phrases but not really putting it in a modern format.
     
  11. OmahaStar

    OmahaStar Disrespectful of his betters Admiral

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    You keep giving up. Callisto, Shakespeare, what are you giving up next?
     
  12. Aldo

    Aldo Admiral Admiral

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    This is the only point of yours that doesn't work for me. You don't like Shakespeare? Fine. You do't get it? Fine, not everyone does.

    But it is easy to understand, maybe not for you, but to try and imply it's not easy for other people is absurd. And if you really were done with this discussion you would have posted that statement at the end of your post and not the middle :guffaw:
     
  13. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    What the hell is "normal" English? There are hundreds dialects and variations across the world.

    For the same reason I'm not composing concertos like Mozart or painting cathedrals like Michelangelo.

    No one talked like that 400 years ago either. It's poetry. And any iambic poem written in 2014 looks just like that.

    No one is beating you up. We're simply trying to open you up to one of the most important aspects--gifts, really--of our culture. There's just so much to get out of it, not only from a language standpoint, but in the way it hones readers' ability to think critically and expanded. You see, no one is supposed to understand it. Get the gist of the plot, sure. But that's not hard to do, even with a fast read. And of course, meant to be performed, and the plot is so much more clearer in a performance.

    As far as fully digesting it, it's not meant to be easy. People literally devote their entire lives to it. But even spending a half hour a night reading and re-reading a few pages (going over the lines that give you the most difficulty) and spending five minutes thinking about what you read and letting the imagery marinade long enough to draw your own conclusions will be so beneficial to your life. At the very, very least it will help you see the films, show, comics you love in a new light and open you up to different ideas and interpolations, either your own or ones you read here and other boards.

    And, at the risk of getting too personal, reading Shakespeare aloud quietly to yourself can do wonders, like nothing else in the English language, for your verbal confidence such that you may feel better at you next interview. ;)

    To this point, I think students learn so much more and get more that well be beneficial to them in life than they do, say, calculus. So much so, that it pains me that R&J is really only mandatory Shakespeare left in schools--those that are lucky enough to have any at all.

    And this is where you lose me. Elizabeth-era Chaucerian English just isn't that different from modern English. I mean, in that entire Ophelia passage you posted, was there a single word you've never seen before? The definitions really haven't changed. (The spellings may have.) Certainly, there are a few words here and there with distinctively different meanings, but any word is properly annotated in any copy of any play/sonnet written in the last 150 years.

    Is it a little obtuse? A little. Figurative? Of course. It's poetry! But most of our modern parlance is figurative--and the figures most commonly derived from Shakespeare!

    Lastly, I think forging an appreciation for Shakespeare can only help with one's appreciation for Star Trek. While, it's hard to deny Shakespeare's influence on all of modern story telling, I don't think there's a single popular franchise that's more engrained in a Shakespearean mindset than Trek. I mean the guy is everywhere. Even getting past the obvious like the two "main" captains are big fans, the story ideas, themes and concepts are all Shakespearesque. But more than that the actors and their dialog--not just specific lines, but the overall cadence--is so much like Shakespeare. And I mean all the actors, not just Shatner and Stewart.
     
  14. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Its not about understanding the individual words, its about understanding them together. If I wrote this

    Would you have any idea what I mean? Its all actual words, but it doesn't go together. Same with a lot of the sections of Shakespeare's work I've seen. While most of the words, taken by themselves, are recognizable, when put together a lot of it is gibberish. The words aren't put into what we would call actual sentences nowadays. Sure, it varies, and from what little I've seen sometimes his stuff can be almost kind of readable if you take a good amount of time to think about it, but thats not good writing. I'm sure it was at the time, but it didn't age well over centuries.

    Edit: Deleted response to Aldo's last post
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2014
  15. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    That's not really the same as what Shakespeare wrote. Though it does remind me of an old Steve Martin bit

    [yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40K6rApRnhQ[/yt]
     
  16. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    (Note: This is about the conversation in general, not a direct response to Nerys Mik's last post).

    This is getting ridiculous. I don't want to argue anymore. I went from being somewhat curious about Shakespeare's stuff based on elements of it being used in things I like (but being unable to decipher the bizarre language or understand it when spoken), to basically hating the topic now (well, its more like hating Shakespeare's fans, I guess). I probably wouldn't touch even a modern translation of his stuff now. So, a hearty "good job" to the few hardcore Shakespeare snobs. You've managed to make a layman not only lose any interest in your special subject, but to go from mild interest to active dislike. Congratulations. I'm just being condescended at or insulted, its not even a conversation at this point, so I'm done. I'm going back to posting about less exclusive topics.
     
  17. Bob The Skutter

    Bob The Skutter Complete Arse Cleft Premium Member

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    I don't like Shakespeare, I don't like poetry, that's fine. To pretend that it's difficult or opaque is anytime matter entirely. It's fine to not like things.
     
  18. Aldo

    Aldo Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly :techman: That's all I was saying to Kirk55555.
     
  19. Corran Horn

    Corran Horn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    so I understand there's going to be a new Avengers movie...
     
  20. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Real Me Premium Member

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    Yes and it will be written by Shakespeare.