As for the Master

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Lonemagpie, Aug 5, 2013.

  1. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ it's not that there's no love for that idea, it's just that its not very likely. It's probably a quarter of a century since he last did UK TV. I think his last US TV appearance was in Friends, which always attracted big stars.

    I think for the most part, people are thinking about who is likely to appear as well as who they'd like to see. Of course Oldman would be a great Master - probably a great Doctor too - but I'd say there's virtually no chance of him doing it.
     
  2. TJ Sinclair

    TJ Sinclair Captain Captain

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    I agree it's unlikely. But these days, Who has gained serious attention, and can attract big actors for limited engagements. They got Derek Jacobi, who admittedly isn't as big as Oldman, but he's still big. Known internationally, and has essentially "moved beyond television." Not to mention Ian McKellen or John-flipping-Hurt. So Oldman is unlikely, yes, but not out of the range of possibility.

    Anyhow, who I'd cast as the Master would depend very much on how Capaldi plays the Doctor. However you see the Master vs. the Doctor -- "Mirror image," "dark reflection" or "similar traits turned up to eleven" -- it depends very much on the Doctor's performance and we really have no idea how Capaldi is going to play him, except that it certainly won't be either exactly like Matt Smith or Malcom-Tucker-in-the-TARDIS.

    If he's a calmer, more reserved Doctor along the lines of Pertwee or Eccleston, I'd rather see a demonstrative, aggressive and flamboyant Master. Someone like (but not) Eddie Izzard maybe. If Capaldi is more a "young heart in an old man's body," then go with, I dunno, Robert Lindsay.

    For me, Cumberbatch only would have worked as the Master against Smith, and I'm very sorry we never got to see that happen. Cumberbatch playing a very reserved, stoic, contemplative villain with the occasional flash of insane, dark rage would have been a perfect counterpoint to Smith's loveable, affable frenetic awkwardness.
     
  3. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ I agree with you re Smith/Cumberbatch and I think the other suggestions you make are very good indeed.
     
  4. Starkers

    Starkers Admiral Admiral

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    See I think Cumberbatch would have been way too similar to Smith. I actually think someone like Capaldi would have made a good Master for Smith, as Moffat says Smith is an old man in a young man's body whilst Capaldi will be a young man in an old man's body, and that's the dynamic Id have like to have seen....
     
  5. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think after Star Trek ID, its probably going to need to be a while before Cumberbatch plays an iconic sci-fi villain anyway. I liked his performance but there's going to be a risk of over-exposure as the sci-fi villain du jour.
     
  6. TJ Sinclair

    TJ Sinclair Captain Captain

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    The only similarities between Cumberbatch and Smith would have been their age and height. Cumberbatch's Holmes and Smith's Doctor are similar, but both actors have range beyond that, and Cumberbatch wouldn't have been playing the Master as Sherlock, certainly. The physical similarity would have added to the mystique of their differing personalities. At least, that's how it looks in my mind. Something more like his John Harrison persona, but with much more charisma and personality.
     
  7. Green Lantern

    Green Lantern Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Plenty of love here!

    Actually, I don't think that's a bad idea! Although I think he could also be alright as the doctor himself! ;)
     
  8. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

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    Tom Hiddleston would make a great Master maybe a bit low-key but he'd a great counter to Peter Capaldi's Doctor.
     
  9. sttngfan1701d

    sttngfan1701d Commodore Commodore

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    I said it before and I'll say it again. I know it would never happen, but Daniel Craig for a one-off appearance as The Master would be amazing.
     
  10. TJ Sinclair

    TJ Sinclair Captain Captain

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    In what possible way? He has all the charisma of a common street thug. :rolleyes:
     
  11. sttngfan1701d

    sttngfan1701d Commodore Commodore

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    Over-the-top charisma did in John Simm's performance IMO. If they're going to do the Master again, they should go in a different direction. Make him cold, calculating. Make him like Professor Moriarty. Make him someone who you think COULD defeat the Doctor. Daniel Craig would kill in that. And remember that he's an ACTOR and can lighten the character if required.
     
  12. TJ Sinclair

    TJ Sinclair Captain Captain

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    Over-the-top and charisma have nothing to do with each other. Simm was the very much the former, which for the most part, overpowered the latter.

    Yes exactly. Benedict Cumberbatch. James Nesbitt. Richard E. Grant. Lennie James. David Warner. Gary Oldman. Derek Jacobi. Clive Owen. Heck, even Michael Caine.

    No, he'd be miscast, flat and over his head. It'd be like casting Ray Liotta as Jafar.

    He's an actor, but he's a rather limited one. And yes, I've seen him in many roles outside Bond. He's good at what he does. Which is the "tough guy," generally. But he's got about as much range as the Rock, arguably less. He's dangerous, sure, but as a blunt instrument. He would make an absolutely terrible criminal mastermind. He's a thug, a troglodyte, that's all he ever plays. And that is in no way the Master.
     
  13. sttngfan1701d

    sttngfan1701d Commodore Commodore

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    I could maybe get on board with some of what you say, but when you call Daniel Craig a very limited actor after you mention Michael Caine as a possibility for The Master, I don't know where you're coming from. Michael Caine's range has deserted him as he's aged. These days he's very limited. Benedict Cumberbatch is limited as well.

    But since you go on and on about Craig, it seems as if you have a personal bias against him. Don't quit your day job and become a casting director, then.

    We'll have to agree to disagree here.
     
  14. TJ Sinclair

    TJ Sinclair Captain Captain

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    He's limited only in the roles he gets, not in what he's capable of. Have you seen him recently in anything outside of Christopher Nolan films? Like many older actors who still work in Hollywood, they've shoved him into a very limited type of role. But see some of the indy films he's done lately, like Harry Brown or Is Anybody There? and tell me that he's "limited."

    Again, have you only seen him in Sherlock and Into Darkness? How about The War Horse or Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy? How about To the Ends of the Earth or The Last Enemy or Small Island? These are quite different roles from his Sherlock, and he's superb in them. Range? Check.

    My only bias against him in this regard is that he's never shown range outside his typical roles, of which the Master is far afield. Name one role that Craig has done that shows he has greater range than "thug" as an actor. Like I said, he's good at what he does. But he's never shown himself capable of doing anything else.

    Obviously, unless you can provide evidence to support your thesis.
     
  15. sttngfan1701d

    sttngfan1701d Commodore Commodore

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    I've seen everything you list there for Cumberbatch. I've seen about everything the guy has done since 2005. He's stiff. I agree with you that he would make a good Master, but he is a limited actor.

    I haven't seen the two films you mention for Caine. I'll check them out.

    Your inability to think outside the box when it comes to an actor's suitability to a role isn't my problem, so why do I need to "support" my "thesis"? We're going to disagree on this all day, so there's no point.
     
  16. TJ Sinclair

    TJ Sinclair Captain Captain

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    I have an inability to think outside the box because I can't see an actor who has only ever played brainless tough guy roles play a brainy mastermind? I love Dwayne Johnson, but I wouldn't cast him as Lex Luthor.

    Is it failing to think outside the box to know that Vin Diesel would make a lousy JFK? Or that Jason Statham wouldn't be the right guy to play Sherlock Holmes? Or that Arnold Schwarzenegger wouldn't be a good Captain Von Trapp? These are actors who are known for playing a certain type of role, and don't really venture outside that territory.

    We only know actors by what they've done. Sometimes that's powerful enough to show us they can do more. Matt Smith's small role as Jim in The Ruby in the Smoke was nothing like the Doctor, but I could see the potential there.

    But what Craig has done, the body of his career, has shown me he can play one type of role. I've never seen him try to do anything else. Let me see Craig play something off type and do it well, and I'd give him a shot. When has he? If Craig has ever wanted to play something different, I'm sure he's had the chance. Name one performance that has shown us something more than "tough guy." Please. I'd like to see it.

    You think Cumberbatch is limited, fine. Maybe I'm seeing degrees of subtlety and nuance in his performances that you aren't, or maybe I'm just reading into things. But in any case, limited or not, he's shown that he can play the same type of role as the Master. It's in his wheelhouse. But on the other hand, I wouldn't cast him as Jim Kirk or Wally West. That's not failing to think outside the box, that's recognizing what an actor's strengths are.
     
  17. sttngfan1701d

    sttngfan1701d Commodore Commodore

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    Craig did not play a "brainless tough guy" in Sylvia, Archangel, or The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. I haven't seen every movie the guy has done but I'm sure there are other examples.

    I can see him as a cold, calculating, dangerous Master with a dry wit. You can't because you're biased. It's as simple as that.

    A already agreed with you that The Master would suit Cumberbatch as well.
     
  18. TJ Sinclair

    TJ Sinclair Captain Captain

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    I'm not biased, I'm going with what I've seen. Sharpe, The Ice House, Layer Cake, Elizabeth, Road to Perdition, Munich, Infamous, Our Friends In the North, The Golden Compass, Defiance, Cowboys & Aliens, and his Bond films.

    But I haven't seen the three films you mention, just as you haven't seen the two I mentioned with Michael Caine. I asked several times for you to name films where he wasn't playing a "tough guy." If he's not playing a role like in Layer Cake or Bond, I'll be happy to give them a chance. I always gave Archangel a pass because I read the book, and the movie seemed like a watered-down, generic spy film adaptation. Dragon Tattoo's been on my list for reasons other than Craig, just haven't gotten around to it.

    So, I'll give them a watch soon, and see if I can picture him in a more thoughtful role than he's shown in the majority of his film career.
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Why not have a weird couple episodes where the Doctor gets trapped on the other side of the time war and he meets Geoffrey Beever's Master who was fucking chilling last month in the Companion Chronicles.
     
  20. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's funny, I remember when Hiddleston was cast as Loki a lot of people saying 'oh, David Tennant or John Simm would've been so much better!'

    @ TJ, I would suggest you watch Craig in Enduring Love, Sylvia, Our Friends In The North (opposite Chris Eccleston no less), The Mother and Some Voices to see him step outside the hard man ghetto.