Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Agenda, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Spock's death is the climax of the movie, and we learn of and see his deep friendship with Kirk from the outset of the movie. Peter Preston was a nobody who lived and died soley to emphasize how ruthless Khan was.

    Likewise, we see Spock and Kirk interacting throughout Into Darkness. They bicker (as many friends do), but they like each other, although Spock doesn't quite realize what he has until he loses it.

    Kirk and Spock's prior adventures together in TOS do add to the WoK death scene, in the same way that knowledge of Wrath of Khan (and the entirety of Trek) adds layers to Into Darkness (i.e. the death scene being a twisted alternate universe version of the same event) but they're not "required reading", so to speak.
    They bicker like an old married couple.

    And as I said above, Spock doesn't realize what a friend he has in Kirk until he loses him. When Kirk is dying, he realizes what Kirk felt when Spock, his friend was about to die on Nibiru. But unlike Kirk earlier, he's utterly helpless to do anything about it.
     
  2. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What is hTrek?
     
  3. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You need to go watch Journey to Babel again. Spock volunteered to take an experimental drug to produce blood so his dying father could have a life saving operation. It was his strict adherence to his responsibility as first officer in Kirk's absence that justified to him to put his fathers well-being on the back burner.

    SPOCK: My first responsibility is to the ship. Our passengers' safety is by Starfleet order of first importance. We are being followed by an alien, possibly hostile, vessel. I cannot relinquish command under these circumstances.

    .....

    AMANDA: Spock, you must turn command over to somebody else.
    SPOCK: Mother, when I was commissioned, I took an oath to carry out responsibilities which were clearly and exactly specified.
    AMANDA: Any competent officer can command this ship. Only you can give your father the blood transfusions that he needs to live.
    SPOCK: Any competent officer can command this ship under normal circumstances. The circumstances are not normal. We're carrying over one hundred valuable Federation passengers. We're being pursued by an alien ship. We're subject to possible attack. There has been murder and attempted murder on board. I cannot dismiss my duties.
    AMANDA: Duty? Your duty is to your father.
    SPOCK: I know, but this must take precedence. If I could give the transfusion without loss of time or efficiency, I would. Sarek understands my reason.
    AMANDA: Well, I don't. It's not human. That's not a dirty word. You're human, too. Let that part of you come through. Your father's dying.
    SPOCK: Mother, how can you have lived on Vulcan so long, married a Vulcan, raised a son on Vulcan, without understanding what it means to be a Vulcan?
    AMANDA: If this is what it means, I don't want to know.
    SPOCK: It means to adopt a philosophy, a way of life, which is logical and beneficial. We cannot disregard that philosophy merely for personal gain, no matter how important that gain might be.
    AMANDA: Nothing is as important as your father's life.
    SPOCK: Can you imagine what my father would say if I were to agree, if I were to give up command of this vessel, jeopardise hundreds of lives, risk interplanetary war, all for the life of one person?
    AMANDA: When you were five years old and came home stiff-lipped, anguished, because the other boys tormented you saying that you weren't really Vulcan. I watched you, knowing that inside that the human part of you was crying and I cried, too. There must be some part of me in you, some part that I still can reach. If being Vulcan is more important to you, then you'll stand there speaking rules and regulations from Starfleet and Vulcan philosophy, and let your father die. And I'll hate you for the rest of my life.
    SPOCK: Mother
    AMANDA: Oh, go to him. Now. Please.
    SPOCK: I cannot.

    It had nothing to do with their "father/son" strained relationship or an emotional "reaction".


    Can you, really? No matter, there'a always Khan's superblood.


    It most certainly is. Are you saying nuTrek is in a mirror universe?


    Wow, thanks.

    His time on Enterprise was "uneventful"? :wtf: ...and that justifies what?

    This just makes no sense whatsoever. Omitting a conversation that had no bearing on anything would have been a plot-hole? :rolleyes:
     
  4. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Historic Trek
     
  5. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    The Plot Hole of omitting the Spock Prime cameo would be people screaming, "NuSpock should've contacted SpockPrime to get the goods on Khan", and that complaint would've continued with every movie, any time something came up that Spock Prime knew a version of. This cameo, allowed them to put that resource to rest and answered the question that Spock Prime isn't going to be giving out information every time an event comes up, and trying to reshape the outcome by forewarning and giving an unearned solution to whatever the problem/adversary may be
     
  6. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Spock couldn't contact Earth. Who would he call - Starfleet Command? Would they believe him or their CIC? If he contact them then they'd probably send out a force against the Enterprise to save Admiral Marcus.

    Why shouldn't nuSpock contact PrimeSpock? nuSpocks being forced inro situations that he wouldn't be in this early in life if it wasn't for PrimeSpock's intrusion/creation of this nuUniverse. Perhaps nuSpock needed PrimeSpock's reasurrance that his instincts about Khan were right. Perhaps nuSpock needs PrimeSpock's advise for his 'emotional security'. He didn't have Kirk to sound out and everyone else aboard was less experienced. I don't think nuSpock wants to go around killing people unless its absolutely necessary.
     
  7. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Not at all. My comments are specific to this movie, not all. There are many movies where deaths are moving and mean something. It's because they built the characters/senarios up so it was. They didn't just mean something because they said so.

    Not at all. But Star Trek isn't Batman and to compare The Joker to Spock is like compairing apples to oranges.

    I saw STID twice in the theaters. Both times I sat in a seat where I could gage the reaction of the audience. What I saw when Kirk died, and Spock lost it was lost of heads shaking (probably the "old" trekkies" and actual LAUGHING! Those "new" viewers actually were laughing! I didn't see a wet eye in the theater. Why? Because that reaction just wasn't earned. These new fans just didn't see it as the writers tried to push it down our throats.

    One could easily say the writers were effected by being a trek fan in this case.

    Please don't make me out to be a "JJ Trek hater" I rated ST09 8 out of 10. That movies gets better with age too. It's quite amazing that a movie with no story at all and science to throw up for is so damn good. I felt the same during ID - until the ending.

    I included an alternate ending in my review posted in the "STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS] thread.

    I've enjoyed how they were developing the relationship. Thought it was appropriate, albeit mind-meld aided.

    So true. But if the Kirk/Spock relationship was as developed as you indicate, then the reaction from those that hadn't been a trekkie for 30 years should have been similar to TWoK.

    Simply put, it wasn't.
     
  8. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't understand why anyone would care about how other audience members react to something they're watching. I'm there to enjoy the show, not prove some pet theory.

    In four showings I went to on opening weekend, I heard exactly one person laugh during the Khan scream: my wife (I went with her opening night). She also thought the Spock death scene in TWOK was cheesy as Hell. My little boy was rubbing tears out of his eyes during Kirk's death.

    As a family: my wife, my mother-in-law and my two sons all enjoyed the movie immensely. That's all I ask for when buying a movie ticket.
     
  9. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Where did I indicate that? We can for certain say they weren't at EACH OTHER'S THROAT prior to meeting the Salt Monster...

    I am most surely aware.

    Absorption function operating perfectly thank you. :)

    I think you believe they'll be "besties for life" because you know them in hTrek.

    Are you telling me that if someone else from his crew was in the Volcano he would have stranded them? Any angst Kirk showed was trying to get Spock to justify breaking the prime directive.

    Yes, Kirk did feel betrayed. It's obvious that Spock didn't share those feelings, because he wrote the reports.

    That would have been nice, but not necessary.

    What you needed maybe, because you knew what their relationship is supposed to be. ;)
     
  10. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Some pet theory? I'm just telling you what I saw. I didn't go to the movie to prove a point. I went to be entertained.

    I went again, to make sure I didn't miss something because I was pissed at the ending.

    Glad you all enjoyed it. No kidding. I went with my family as well. They all looked at me during the death scene :lol: Of course they, except for my 10 year old, had all watched lots of trek with me and had seen TWoK.

    She thought TWoK death scene was cheesy? ... time for a change? :lol:

    Just kidding.;)
     
  11. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Spock didn't think Kirk would lie on his report, but as he said in Pike's office, he was very grateful Kirk saved his life.
     
  12. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    [HERESY ALERT!] Very astute observation by your wife. Frankly, I thought Spock's death scene in TWOK was cheesy, too. It even had moments of humor. I remember muffled chuckles in the theater three times during the scene (and that included me): 1. When Spock gets up and then thinks enough to straighten his tunic. 2. When he walks into the wall and bounces off because he apparently can't see well. 3. When he seems concerned enough to ask Kirk what he thought of his solution to the no-win scenario. [/HERESY ALERT!]

    At least to me, in comparison, Kirk's death scene was far more gut-wrenching with the tight shots, sad music, and real fear expressed by Kirk and real emotion expressed by Spock. The ONLY thing it had in common with TWOK was it was a similar situation done much better than the first time. (Now, I'll just go put on a hard hat to withstand all the rocks and garbage that will be thrown at me. Imagine, an original Trek fan going back to TOS disliking Spock's death scene. :) )
     
  13. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    You said you hadn't seen onscreen that they had developed that relationship, like we had seen in TOS. Obviously in TOS first episode, you would not have seen that relationship develop yet, so, how is it you can accept their freindship in the first TOS episode, but, not in STiD, which did show their friendship and followed up the movie that had them at each other's throats and making up (Which again is Movie or Guy shorthand for "they're gonna be Besties for Life")
     
  14. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well sure... that does not constitute being "besties".

    If you were Joe shit the rag man, wouldn't you be greatful?
     
  15. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What? :confused:

    I said they could be friends, I never indicated I thought they had time to develop the friendship we knew they had in TWoK.
     
  16. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Heresy is right :sigh:

    The only thing "cheesy" about Spock's death scene, was "what the hell was he doing in that thing?" "What the hell was he fixing in there?"
     
  17. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You seemed to miss an important part of my post.

    "emotional security" .... exactly, a huge problem with nuSpock at the end of STID. I guess Spockprime didn't help him there.

    "instincts" :rofl: What did he need to be instictual about? He already knows first hand what Khan's done... :rolleyes:
     
  18. Ovation

    Ovation Vice Admiral Admiral

    Count me among the heretical. I saw TWOK the week it opened (I've been watching TOS since 1973 at the age of six). While I didn't find Spock's death scene overly "cheesy", I found it less compelling than what I watched in the cinema this past summer (and will soon watch again). The quality of acting from Pine/Quinto sold the scene more effectively than did Shatner/Nimoy (and I enjoy the work of each).

    As for the scream--it had a far more compelling contextual justification than Kirk's scream in TWOK. The character arc building over two films for Spock made the moment far more believable than Kirk's motives for his scream. Certainly one is free to disagree, but let's not pretend that the entire scene is one that should be "obviously bad" to all viewers. And in two packed screenings, I did not hear a single sound that remotely hinted at laughter or any other derogatory thought. More than one person was dabbing at their eyes, though. So anecdotal evidence is rendered moot by other anecdotal evidence (as is usually the case).
     
  19. SeerSGB

    SeerSGB Admiral Admiral

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    Save a spot on the pyre for me too. I felt hurt more when the Enterprise was destroyed than when Spock died. Then again, even at as a kid watching it, I knew they'd bring him back. Doesn't make what the character did any less bold, just that you knew they'd never kill off Kirk, Spock, or McCoy and let them stay dead.

    Never liked Kirk's "Khaaaaaaaaaaaaan!" Mainly cause 3 minutes later we find out that there was nothing to worry about cause he knew Spock was waiting with the Enterprise. I've no problem with Quinto's yell being there, just that it felt like he was restraining himself a little when he should have been raging it.
     
  20. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I certainly believe everyone who posts here has seen TWOK at least once. But I wonder if a significant number of others who winced or even laughed at the scene in STID only know Kirk's shout in TWOK from references in pop culture (like the Seinfeld episode).

    I mean, if either one of the two shouts is at all laughable, it's Kirk's. As Ovation pointed out, Spock's shout fit the context of the moment far better than Kirk's in TWOK. The outburst was a true unfiltered expression of heartfelt anguish.