Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies XI+' started by Agenda, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. Agenda

    Agenda Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    There have been many defenses made of Spock's emotional displays in both STID and the 2009 film. Even if I agreed that these displays are fully justified given the plot, I wouldn't agree that this version of the character is nearly as interesting as the one we've come to know over the past 45+ years.

    I guess one could argue that that Spock yelling, crying and screaming every movie is a "fresh" approach. But I don't think this is a character who needs a fresh approach. I think of many of the best episodes and movies of Trek and many of the best showings of the character, and in those appearances, he barely reveals any emotion - or if he does it's very subtly done.

    Now, I don't object to Spock occasionally showing emotion. There were always those "exceptions" - those occasional episodes where he shows glimpses of emotion or goes all out. In fact, these were partly what made the character tantalizing over the years of his existence, partly because they reminded us about the parts of himself that he was always repressing. I also think these occurrences made him interesting because they were relatively rare.

    But they're rare no longer. And I feel they've gone way overboard. They've turned these exceptions into almost the rule - in two movies in a row - and I just don't think it's a very interesting approach to the character in the least - even if it can be argued that the plot of the movie justifies it.
     
  2. Makarov

    Makarov Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I saw Zachary Quinto at comic con and he said something about Spock evolving into a more TOS non-emotional Spock over the course of these new movies. But really his emotional moments still feel rare to me.
     
  3. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    "Billions of your race have died, including your mother."

    "Indeed."

    /end movie
     
  4. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Old Spock cried in the first one. His female counterpart cried in the second one. He screamed in the third one. Laughed in the fourth one. And yelled and mentally raped someone in the sixth one.
     
  5. austen_pierce

    austen_pierce Captain Captain

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    Spock has had a rough couple of years. The loss of his mother, his home-world, then (briefly) his best friend, Kirk, just as he's beginning to understand the nature of their relationship.

    It's warranted. Should they always go there? Maybe not as cranked up to 11 as this, but an emotional Spock, especially expressing his friendship to Kirk, is foundational. We lose this at the risk of losing part of the soul of Trek.
     
  6. Khan444

    Khan444 Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    People act like Nimoy Spock never showed emotion, he did. The very fact that he was lifelong friends with Kirk and Bones is a show of emotion in an of itself. He had a sense of humor, he got angry, he could be romantic, he was an emotional being, no matter how much he tried not to be. Quinto's Spock is younger and less experienced, so of course he might be more emotional. He also saw his mother die right in front of him, his world crumble right in front of him, 99.9% of his race be wiped out, that affects a person and Nimoy's Spock didn't go through that when he was younger. In STID, he saw his friend die right in front of him. Both are great characters. If you notice, Nimoy Spock seems more openly emotional in the 2009 film in his scenes with Kirk/Young Spock. He even says that Spock should do what FEELS right. So maybe old Spock finally came to terms with his emotions and accepted them.
     
  7. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    Agreed. You can see signs in the later movies, where Spock starts to express more emotion than he once did, especially after he had "died."
     
  8. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    I'd argue Spock Prime is telling his younger self what he wishes someone had said to him. And he's lived with the Romulans for a while too, so he's learned that emotion doesn't have to be destructive.
     
  9. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Rated Awesome By 9 out of 10 Awesome Experts Moderator

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    There's a great scene in Devil in the Dark where Spock thinks a mine has collapsed on Kirk and clearly gets upset that he might get hurt. First he's all serious and goes to running and yelling "Jim". I always liked that Spock always had a soft spot for his friends, especially Kirk.
     
  10. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I know there are reasons for Spock's emotionalism in nuTrek but I still liked it better in TOS.

    Sure Spock was plenty emotional in TOS. All that had to happen was Kirk get in danger or be angry with him. But it was more subtle over 79 episodes and so much more rewarding when you got to see it.

    Sometimes when you see nuTrek Spock you just think its just inevitable he's going to go ballistic at some point. You never thought that about Nimoy Spock (except in Amok Time, This Side of Paradise, The Naked Time, Mirror Mirror - well OK quite a few times LOL)
     
  11. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    Again, though, unique situation here. Nimoy's Spock never had to deal with the annihilation of his people, the obliteration of his home planet, or the death of his mother when he was much younger. All of this happened at once for Spock, and I think in the movies he's still sorting it all out.
     
  12. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    :guffaw:
     
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  13. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    Thank you, sir. :D
     
  14. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    Spock has totally shown more emotion in these two movies than he ever did in TOS when he wasn't under alien influence. Yes, there are extenuating circumstances, and so on but it has definitely gone too far. Having Spock cry during Kirk's death scene is certainly out of character. Hell, Kirk reacted more Vulcan like when Spock died in TWOK than Spock did when Kirk died in STID.
     
  15. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    You forget, though, that in TOS his planet was still there, his mom was still alive and he was trying to be a perfect little Vulcan to please his father.
     
  16. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    THE WOMEN!

    (Sorry, had to be said.)

    We're seeing young Spock in the new movies just like we're seeing young Kirk. The little we saw of young Spock in "The Cage" would lead one to believe he was more emotional as a young man in the prime universe, too.

    The interesting thing about this Spock is his explanation for why he doesn't want to feel. He's closing off his emotions because the feelings from the loss of Vulcan are just too much to endure. Someone in a review of the movie likened it to how Holocaust survivors in real life coped with their horrors by simply choosing not to feel.

    Lest we forget, Spock is a very complex character (both of them).
     
  17. Yanks

    Yanks Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, Spock(prime) was emotionally "compromised" in ST09 as well. He didn't go off on an illogical emotional rampage.

    They've completely lost nuSpock.

    In STID, he loses a "friend" that he's been at odds with and hated so he does what?

    1. Balls and screams "Khan"

    2. Flies TOWARDS EARTH with Khan and the Vengeance in tow for no apparent reason whatsoever.

    3. Goes all Incredible Hulk on Khan with the intent of killing him.

    That is in no way "Spock". Unless of course he's experiencing Pon-far and is in a blind uncontrollable rage or somehow ingested Trellium-D.

    Not the Spock we all know and love.

    Nothing in "nu" Trek should have changed the character.
     
  18. Hober Mallow

    Hober Mallow Commodore Commodore

    I'd like a Spock who has some mystery to him, actually seems like he's alien and not just a passive-aggressive human.
     
  19. Coloratura

    Coloratura Snuggle Princess Premium Member

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    You mean the much older Spock who has lived his life and knows his actual friends are alive and well in the prime universe from which he came?

    Lost him from where? This universe is somewhat different from the prime universe. It's like saying "this orange doesn't taste at all like the other apples."

    Why have friend in quotes? Kirk is Spock's friend, or at least they seem to be working toward a friendship in ST09. By STiD some time has passed, and they have become friends. Each offers their own attributes to that friendship, but they are friends. Why do you think Kirk was so upset that Spock filed the Nubira report without telling him? Because he trusted Spock as a friend to let him know. Spock didn't understand Kirk's anger because Spock's idea of friendship was a bit different. That doesn't change that they were friends.

    Balls what? Do you mean "bawls"? He cries because in less than a handful of years, he's lost his first home, most of his race, his mother, and nearly lost his friends.

    Now he sees the man whom he has drawn closer to, laying in front of him, dying after having sacrificed himself to save the ship. This is his family. Thanks to his meld with Pike, he now knows the pain of fear and confusion one experiences upon death, and it mirrors his own, and in that moment, he just loses the last bit of logical cohesion that kept him in check.

    He's a Vulcan, not a robot. Why is this difficult to understand?

    Flies toward what? The Enterprise was without power and caught in Earth's gravity well. It was plummeting toward the surface. There's no "apparent reason" because it didn't happen the way you say it did.

    "Incredible Hulk"? The man was enraged that Khan had killed his friend, his brother in every meaningful sense of the word, a man who turned on him and the crew of the Enterprise, and tried to kill them all. He saw him getting away, and pursued him with intent to end it once and for all.

    Again, not a robot, never was.

    Apparently you know and love a different Spock. In fact, you do know and love a different Spock. One from another timeline where none of the tragedies that befell this Spock had ever happened.

    Seriously? You'd see most of humanity die, lose your mother, watch your friend die sacrificing himself to save you, face death yourself only to survive, and watch a madman try to kill your family, and would walk away from it unfazed?

    Congratulations, you've outSpocked Leonard Nimoy. Go collect your pointed ears.
     
  20. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think part of the issue for some (not for me) is that we're getting seventy-nine episodes and six movies worth of character development compressed down into what will be three or four films.

    They simply don't have the time to be subtle with this version of the character.