Are vulcans biologically smarter than humans?

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by LobsterAfternoon, Sep 28, 2012.

  1. Hando

    Hando Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2011
    Well, actually we do have something to go by: the "school" tests in nuTrek.

    We have a way of comparison, just take a look at how today's IQ test are set up. If humans and Vulcans were to take them the result would be Augment IQ > Vulcan IQ > Human IQ.


    Given that humans always - as far as we know - over took the Vulcans in the development department, we could say that the humans are perhaps more creative then Vulcans. Vulcan can remember more - which should be an positive (in the future you need a greater mix of knowledge to come to new idea - at least according to a theory I read somewhere), but it is not seen anywhere.

    Perhaps the answer is this (I will use IQ as an example) Vulcans are 120+/-5 to human 100+/-40. So humans have a higher chance of a genius, or an idiot at the other hand, then Vulcans. And if you calculate in the population, humans have an advantage.
     
  2. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Location:
    Shangri-La
    Not true. There are people who simply learn things more easily and take to new concepts than others. Intelligence really could be described merely as to know readily one processes new information. Education is the knowledge itself, not how easily or not it's learned and processed.

    It stands to reason that if there were alien races some would be more biologically intelligent than others. Even among humans there's proven genetic intelligence... why else do Ivy League graduates get sought out at the sperm banks so often?
     
  3. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    They are horrible scientists, but perhaps superior technicians.

    Thinking back to Enterprise, did Vulcans invent transporters at all? Or had their science directorate authorities determined that beaming was impossible?

    Consider the episode Journey to Babel, Sarek and his party traveled from the surface of Vulcan to Kirk's ship by shuttle.

    While Spock and later Tuvok did use the transporter, did Sub-commander T'Pol ever travel by transporter? I can't remember it happening even once. Her dogma might have convinced her that nothing would happen if she entered the transporter chamber.

    Maybe that a part of the arranged marriage thing. Combining blood lines that produce increasingly intelligent children.

    But the capacity for intelligence and "smarts" is. Humans are more intelligent than animals, no matter how much education you give a animal, it will never rise to average Human levels.

    This could be the case with Humans (and other Federation sapient species) and Vulcans, their physical/biological brain might be capable of more intelligence.

    And at the beginning of Voyage Home. Spock did well in the tests he was taking on matters of memory and problem solving. But when asked a question that required retrospection and insight, Spock stalled, he couldn't understand the question.

    :)
     
  4. mupps

    mupps Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2011
    Some people still claim that.:lol:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society
     
  5. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    I would argue against this statement because its our environment and the way we are raised (not to mention presented with certain options), along with exposure to certain information (and a whole bunch of other factors that have nothing to do with 'mental wiring') what varies quite a lot.
    Even people who were born in the same environment, exposed to same 'education' will be each treated differently, wether by their parents or their peers, and their exposure to information (relevant or otherwise along with education will be different) - in some cases, the differences will probably be subtle (in others, large), but it would still have a profound impact on ones development (ranging all the way back to fetal development - nutritional intake/diet, external stimulation impacting the body and the fetus growth - all of those are factors that can and probably do influence Human development).
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2012
  6. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
    To believe that Vulcans are, or even could be, smarter than humans is to believe that Vulcans are superior to humans. That is a most illogical and bigoted way to behave. In other words, it's Solok from "Take Me Out to the Holosuite".
     
  7. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Location:
    Shangri-La
    So is it bigoted to say that human men are generally physically stronger than women too?
     
  8. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Location:
    At star's end.
    If vulcans are smarter than humans, then saying or believing exactly this is neither illogical, not bigoted. Why? Because it's the TRUTH.

    And if you equate 'superior' with 'smarter/more intelligent', then yes, vulcans were depicted as superior to humans - politically correct squeamishness changing nothing of this.
     
  9. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    Perhaps intellectually superior. But as has been noted, intelligence and smarts are two different things. Humans as a group would seem to be smarter than Vulcans.

    And a serious case could be made that Vulcans are culturally inferior to Humans, and socially stunted. Both of which could have to do with their brain architecture.

    I'm sorry, but how does your response argue against Teacake's statement that "We are not blank slates. Our brains vary in wiring." Teacake never claimed that environment wasn't a contributing factor.
     
  10. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
    There are strong women, and there are weak men. So you tell me.

    That has not been established.

    Something tells me that line of reasoning has been used before...

    The Vulcan educational system may indeed be superior to ours. Given what little we've seen of it (Spock's training in ST XI, for example), I'll concede that. But I won't concede that all Vulcans are smarter than humans. There is wide variation in individuals of every species.
     
  11. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    T'Girl

    The 'brain wiring' is something that I'm arguing to be over 95% environmental, whereas genetics play a minor part.
    In a sense, all Humans (barring any genetic issues that actively inhibit learning, memory retention or could cause brain damage) would be born with an equal potential for adaptation and learning, therefore, what they actually become in life is basically a byproduct of the environment (exposure to information/stimulus).

    Intelligence wouldn't be a genetic factor, but rather environmental one that hinges heavily/entirely on ones exposure to relevant education, experiences and knowledge - there is no 'pre-determined' knowledge or skill-set that one is born with (let alone 'instincts' - which are very different from motor functions and reactions to external/internal stimulus).

    There might be (probably are) genetic tendencies, but having a tendency towards something is NOT a guarantee it will develop in an individual - that much depends on the environment.
    For example, a genetic predisposition towards violence will not inherently result in a violent individual if they are raised in an environment that isn't abusive (actually, they will be LESS prone to violent behavior compared to others in such an environment).
    Equally so, just because a person is abused as a child doesn't have to necessarily grow up into a sociopath or be a danger to society if they were exposed to (for example) the notion they could have a better life and were prompted/encouraged to take choices in life that might eventually lead them to that life.
    But if a person is basically exposed to just 1 thing and nothing else, chances of them knowing any other way of life or envisioning it in the first place is next to impossible because they would have 0 frame of reference for it.

    The blank slate aspect works well in this regard because, how exactly do you expect of a person to comprehend anything unless they were exposed to concepts that would allow them to create a frame of reference that would begin to even come close?
    For that matter, how would you expect of a person to score high on an IQ test if they were never educated on how to add, subtract, multiply, divide, know what basic geometric shapes are, etc., or which colors have appropriate names... or what more complex geometric forms are, more complex words, equations etc...?
    If a Human is not exposed to these things and actively encouraged to use them (in a way that is interesting to them), you cannot expect them to score remotely close to 'average' (let alone 'high') - and society could easily classify this person as 'slow' or 'stupid' simply because they were not exposed to the information that would allow them to understand, let alone process (or encouraged to use) this information.


    I would agree that it hadn't been established... directly.
    There was an episode in Voyager ('The Raven' I think) in which 7 of 9 (when in a shuttle and on her way to the Borg signal) addressed Tuvok in the following manner:
    'Vulcan. Species Three Two Five Nine. Your enlarged neocortex produces superior analytical abilities.'
    But this wouldn't necessarily translate to Vulcans being 'smarter' (they DID nearly destroy themselves and had a pretty violent history) - and it could just as easily manifest only in an environment that actively encourages usage of analytical abilities- which might not have been the case until VERY late in Vulcan cultural development... it also depends on which species was 7 actually comparing Vulcans to, or what kind of 'standards' the Borg might have in the first place (but the Borg WOULD designate such biological traits as 'superior' - Humans or Vulcans might not - at least not the Vulcans from the 23rd/24th century, the 22nd century ones though might be a different story...).

    Aside from that (which I don't think would necessarily carry any weight), I don't think we have any concrete evidence to support the claim that Vulcans are biologically smarter than Humans. As stated though, their education 'might' be, but we've also seen very little of that to make any final determinations, and lets be frank... we've seen very little if anything of the Human educational system - which wouldn't be anywhere NEAR in shape or form of what is currently being done given the cultural changes and overall approach to life humanity underwent according to Roddenberry).

    Vulcans have been established to be 3x stronger though, but that's not the same thing (and it doesn't make them necessarily 'superior' - merely provides an advantage under certain conditions, just as Humans might display attributes under certain conditions that could seemingly 'surpass' those of a Vulcan - and we don't know how much of that strength differential is due to actual biology/genetics compared to gravity and overall eco-system of Vulcan as a planet and whether humans could develop similar attributed training under same conditions for certain periods of time).
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
  12. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Location:
    Shangri-La
    Missing the point, maybe?
     
  13. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Location:
    inside teacake
    What the heck are you talking about. Star Trek is full of aliens who are smarter, stronger, more telepathic than other aliens. Do you think all of the aliens are of equal intelligence?

    Intelligence doesn't equal superior, it's just another factor. There are differing kinds of intelligence too, some species being more creative others being able to retain vast amounts of data.
     
  14. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Location:
    At star's end.
    The overwhelming majority of men are stronger than the overwhelming majority of women.
    You are grasping at straws, appealing to exceptions, NOT the rule.

    Something tells me that's a straw-man.

    I'm curious - what if it's established that vulcans ARE smarter than humans - no ambiguity remaining?

    Will you still hide behind grasping at straws and hair-splitting in order to avoid acknowledging this fact, merely because it doesn't sit well with your PC assumptions?

    PS - The educational system is a distant secondary factor in determining intelligence/IQ.
    By far, the most important factor is the genetics - and yes, I know you don't like this, but it is so.
     
  15. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Location:
    T'Girl
    One of the most easily seen examples of "brain wiring" would be being either right or left handed, an attribute that has nothing to do with environment.

    Because of brain architecture, man are better with spatial recognition and awareness. The primary visual, and visuo-spatial association areas of the parietal lobes are proportionally larger in males.

    Women's brains are more densely packed with neurons than men's. Women's brains have larger Wernicke's and Broca's areas, areas that are responsible for language processing. The auditory regions are proportionally larger in females versus in males

    The hippocampus is larger in women than men, the hippocampus is responsible for memory storage and spatial mapping of the physical environment.

    Men have six times more grey matter, women have ten times more white matter. One species, two radically differntly "hardwired" brains.

    Your intelligence is what you're born with, it's wired in. Now your right on one aspect, education and environment can increase or decrease you ability to utilize and manifest your intelligence. But nothing will increase or decrease your actual intelligence, other than perhaps a brain injury of some kind.

    If you were to receive no education at all, your intelligence would be the same. You wouldn't be able to measure it with say a IQ test, but it would be there.

    That's not intelligence, that's knowledge and experience.

    :)
     
  16. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    It's really odd that anybody would question the possibility of biologically differing levels of intelligence, when it is part of our very society that we acknowledge the lower intelligence of those unfortunate who are born damaged somehow, as well as that of our animal companions and slaves. Is the idea that somebody would be demonstrably and statistically significantly above our level really so much more objectionable than the opposite idea that we so eagerly embrace - that our inferiors exist?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Location:
    inside teacake
    Our.. slaves?
     
  18. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2005
    Location:
    the Frozen Wastes
    :lol: Of all the things you could have picked out from that.
     
  19. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    ..Isn't it a great sign of cultural advance that we now only enslave our biological inferiors when the inferiority is demonstrable, not when it's merely assumed? :devil:

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  20. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2007
    Location:
    inside teacake
    You should write copy for PETA! Though you might have to leave out the cultural advance part.