Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by WesleysDisciple, Apr 2, 2013.

  1. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Captain Captain

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    I loved it. The conflict for such an officer as Sisko was good drama, and ofcourse Garak, what a great carakter.
     
  2. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's my favourite episode in all of Star Trek, with The Cage being a close second.
     
  3. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    All the philosophy aside, it was simply good TV viewing, IMO. At the time, the ending was unusual for Trek, because it usually liked to wrap up a story line all neat and proper.

    Garak probably had some of the best lines near the end of the episode where he gave that small speech to Sisko.
     
  4. TheRoyalFamily

    TheRoyalFamily Commodore Commodore

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    On thinking about this earlier, I realized that, had this been a TNG episode, the Enterprise crew would be trying to defeat Sisko and Garak. Sisko is the typical TNG "Starfleet Naughty Fellow."
     
  5. DS9forever

    DS9forever Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    TNG actually broke a few Roddenberry's dictums - the space pirates in "Gambit" for one and mentions of Starfleet Intelligence.
     
  6. davejames

    davejames Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I know TNG gets criticized for that a lot, but I thought the show actually made that idea work pretty well. The fact this was a crew of mature and professional officers who all respected and worked well together was a huge part of it's appeal, I think. And I wouldn't want them to be any other way.

    If there was a problem with certain episodes, it was because of generally bad writing or a boring plot, not because of a lack of character conflict-- because there were certainly enough fantastic episodes that worked just fine without it.
     
  7. Finngle Bells

    Finngle Bells Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Roddenberry crap was taken too far with the TNG's "evolved" humanity. Like some of the others, Trek was better without him in charge :)

    I think it's one of the best Trek episodes.
     
  8. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Roddenberry's vision is great.

    In The Pale Moonlight is great, though not Roddenberry's vision.

    If the Romulans found out the truth after the war (Which they had no real way of doing), it's possible they'd declare war, but it wouldn't be out of outrage and anger. It'd be because they wanted to anyway and this gives them a reason, and they would only do it if they thought they could win. Which there's no way they could because the Klingon High Council ended up with an extremely pro-Federation Chancellor.

    Just like if the Romulans went to war in The Enemy it wouldn't have been because of the outrage of their dead pilot, it would be because they wanted to go to war and the dead pilot made them look like the victims.

    The Dear Doctor comparison is the exact opposite of In The Pale Moonlight. In The Pale Moonlight was, go against principle to save trillions of lives. Dear Doctor was, allow billions of people to die on vague principle, and it was a principle that didn't even make sense.

    And I've heard the TNG writers say that the 'No conflict' edict forced them to be more creative, because it prevented them from falling back on normal TV tropes.
     
  9. JiNX-01

    JiNX-01 Admiral Admiral

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    I thought it was a great episode. I absolutely adore Garak. He's my favorite DS9 character.

    So, if you don't like characters who are flawed, I recommend The Next Generation. All of the main characters are descendants of Mary Poppins and will quickly put you to [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG].
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I think In the Pale Moonlight is a natural outgrowth of Roddenberry's vision. Whether it be Roddenberry of 1966 or 1987.

    Once you achieve paradise, what are you willing to do to protect it when its very existence is in danger?
     
  11. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

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    Agreed, on all counts.
     
  12. Anna Yolei

    Anna Yolei Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I didn't have a problem with his vision of sunshine and lollipops and everyone working for their own enlightenment.

    But from a purely story-telling POV, I think DS9 holds up moreso than TNG because there's conflicts from within the cast. More often than not on TNG their conflicts extend from external pressures; and while many are still better than much of what passes as television today, that whole model of "no internal conflicts" was going nowhere fast....even moreso with Voyager, where there weren't even good stories to make up for that.
     
  13. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I loved it, and to me, there is no "dilemma" there. If Sisko doesn't act, the UFP is in danger of losing the war.
     
  14. R. Star

    R. Star Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sure there is. Sisko did some pretty crappy things in this episode, and they -should- weigh on him. But the "good" (if you want to call it that) of getting the help to win the war, outweighs the moral implications of how he accomplished it.
     
  15. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    I wouldn't call it "good" but necessary to draw the Romulans in before the scales tipped too far in favor of the Dominion.

    Sisko has the cost of two lives plus whoever else suffered due to the bio-mimetic gel being given to someone who wanted it for "genetic experimentation" on his head.
     
  16. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    that's not what a dilemma is. A dilemma is a situation with two relatively equal sides and no right decision. Sisko may have had to do things he didn't like, but he made the correct decision and Garak summed it all up rather well.
     
  17. Kira Nerys

    Kira Nerys Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You got to be kidding me ?I usually don't like Sisko,in this ep he was brilllant .It was the best ep in all of Star Trek.
     
  18. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The moral of the story is, you're a noble fellow if when necessity forces you to commit a wrong against someone, you still feel bad, for a little while at least. But...

    The necessity in the story is completely irrelevant to anything in real life, coming from the menace of bad SF figures like the Founders. Like the ticking bomb scenario, the enemy with impossible powers is a premise preselected for a desired conclusion, namely, sometimes you have to be immoral, or dead.

    The plotting of how the criminal acts are supposed to save humanity is unbelievable to anyone who has thought about the role of intelligence in the decision to go to war. Again, this is a preselected premise, in this case designed to hinge the outcome of the war on a single person's decision. Maximum ego boo for vicarious identification, in other words.

    There isn't a real conflict within Sisko, because the premises make any other choice insane. No, conflict isn't drama, choice is drama. Sisko has no choice, therefore is not a signifiicant moral agent.

    The conclusion is evidently supposed to be ironic, in that Sisko is not really supposed to be able to live with himself. But as an open ended serial, Sisko is able, easily, to live with himself, meaning that the character development in the episode is meaningless.

    There's nothing to hate about In the Pale Moonlight aside from its reactionary politics and the absurd praise it receives. It's just another crap SF show.
     
  19. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    By the standards you project, there are very few that aren't. The episode is just a natural outgrowth of Roddenberry's paradise.
     
  20. JediKnightButler

    JediKnightButler Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Not me! I thought that it was a great- if not pivotal episode. It showcased Sisko (and Starfleet's) dilemmas at that time quite well. The scene at the end with Garak, as well as his closing lines and deletion of the log were some of the best moments of the series.