Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Dale Sams, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    I dunno about you, but I'm not sure my Nigerian friend would appreciate it if I argued with him and called him a "Nigger bastard" playfully or if I called any of the Hindu friends "Towelheads" in an affectionate manner.

    And Captain Tracy

    Because frankly, I found him just as racist in return, with a helping of hypocrisy on top of it. Not to say I think McCoy was that much better.
     
  2. Captain Tracy

    Captain Tracy Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2011
    Location:
    OMEGA IV
    :techman: MY WORD!!!! There may hope for the future of humanity after all!!! That's very freshening considering the type of media and educational brain-washing your generation has been bombarded with; reminds me of ERRAND OF MERCY, where KOR said to KIRK,.. "What do we have here,.. a Ram?,.. amongst a population the Sheep!?!"

    Did you grow up in the generation where your school sports teams were still allowed to keep score and WIN, or had that not been 'outlawed' at school yet in your day?

    The so-called ANTI-SPOCK RACISM,... obviously you can see right through the entire STAR TREK charade... "even" based on your personal RACISM experiences,.. and how did you phrase that again,.. "Visually Identifiable Ethnic Difference", or something like that,... Classic LOL!,.. and "even" with that still, NO sympathy for SPOCK in your posts,.. Bingo!

    You know that type of critical-thinking thing might get you into trouble,.. The Government is so supposed to have you hypnotized, complacent, and 'embracing ALL diversity',.. Are you a trouble-maker?

    On BETA III, you would be labeled "NOT OF THE BODY", and cause Reger to flap his arms about like a ballerina while screaming for LANDRU.

    I bet on EMINIR VII,.. you're probably the type of guy who wouldn't even dutifully report to the disintegration chambers when order by the robot-voiced computer,... what kind of 'Patriot' are you?!?

    Now I see where you are coming from. Thanks.

    My difficulty in understanding your point arose as you kept re-citing examples from scenes, which, from my PERSPECTIVE, doesn't allow me to actually understand your PERSPECTIVE, by pointing to the incident; that is, until you made the made the 'scene reference-less' point,...

    To sum: "All the key STAR TREK characters are False, Hypocritical, and Racist in their conception".

    "GASP!",

    "HORRORS!",

    "BLASPHEMY!",

    Of course the are, Roddenberry designed the format that way purposefully,.. and NOT to show how "we are all the same deep down inside, once you get past the myriad of differences that makes us INDIVIDUALS, and we all get along just swell,...isn't all so chummy!"

    ANWAR - Do you also feel SPOCK is a hypocrite, every time he dons his SF Uniform, considering what the UFP really does, and what SPOCK espouses to hold as his moral/ethic code?

    And how did STAR TREK go from Gene's original concept of putting samples of humanity, with all their DIFFERENCES and DIVERGENT ATTITUDES, put them in a bottle and 'Shake them up under pressure', and watch them interact,...

    ... and get turned into a commercial, an agenda promoting propaganda advertisement, for BEING A CRIME TO EVEN LOOK AT THOSE DIFFERENCES AND HOLD A DIVERGENT ATTITUDE OF NON-EMBRACEMENT?

    Or am I being a XENO/HOMOPHOBIC DINOSAUR, like the alarmist robot-voice over the speaker keeps repeating ?
     
  3. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    Oh come on, people ares till allowed to "Win" at games! I played competitive sports when I was a boy and we loved winning! Heck, our team at work is frequently pitted against each other at work in games and we get carried away with the competitiveness! Modern society is NOT that pussified!

    TBH, I was kind of getting tired of the Spock/McCoy racist banter with one another after 3 seasons of if. I'm glad the movies gave them some character development wherein they both got over it (more or less) and grew as characters.
     
  4. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Per Ardua
    It was still there in The Wrath of Khan and in bits and pieces in the other films.
     
  5. ToddPence

    ToddPence Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2007
    Location:
    Fairfax, VA
    I feel it incumbent to point out that easily the most racist, xenophobic character ever depicted on TOS was the Vulcan ruler, T'Pau.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Per Ardua
    I don't know. For all her bluster, she essentially pulled Kirk out of a jam at the end.
     
  7. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Location:
    Brockville, Ontario, Canada
    I think a lot of this is getting over analyzed and blown way out of proportion.
     
  8. plynch

    plynch Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Location:
    Outer Graceland
    How would it go in the Navy if someone on a sub or carrier talked to his/her XO the way Boomer, Styles, McCoy et al. talk to Spock?
     
  9. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Location:
    Brockville, Ontario, Canada
    Let's not forget we're still talking about a television show where a lot is done for the purpose of drama and sensation. It can have a sense of realism to it without being strictly true and authentic.

    I do agree with beaker, though, because I've seen it firsthand friends talking to each other in what someone else not familiar with them would think is totally inappropriate language. A good film example of what I've seen can be found in Gran Torino in how Clint Eastwood's character relates to his barber.
     
  10. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Is this the Boomer that shoots Kirk or the one who has a baby with Chekov?
     
  11. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Per Ardua
    Boma?
     
  12. T'Bonz

    T'Bonz Romulan Curmudgeon Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2000
    Location:
    Across the Neutral Zone
    Captain Tracy.

    When something is said about toning it down and NOT GETTING PERSONAL, I expect posters to do just that - tone it down.

    If you choose to not listen to what I have to say, your tenure on this board will be short.

    No more personal stuff in this thread going forward. It's a damned Star Trek board and the last thing I want to do is come on and read pissy fights.
     
  13. Captain Tracy

    Captain Tracy Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2011
    Location:
    OMEGA IV

    T'Bonz -

    Since you have elected to single me out by name, why not simply communicate with me via PM ?

    Your general announced instructions were to keep it "TREK TALK ONLY" and "NO GENERAL COMMENTS ON MODERN SOCIETY".

    And not:

    "TONE IT DOWN and NOT GET PERSONAL", being wholly different and contrary instructions which have just now suddenly appeared at this immediate moment.

    "You are being clever Commander; that is unworthy of a Romulan".

    As obviously, "There remains a Truth which remains unspoken" regarding unspoken posting policies which apply specifically to me, of which you will not state publicly.

    Therefore, let us discuss the matter, in PM, where you can state and define what it is you actually are asking for, in an environment where you can speak freely, openly, and Truthfully, concerning the real posting rules.

    Please show me the same effort, and good-will, as I extended to you in complying with your actual General Announcement.

    Your pending PM is most welcome.



    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2013
  14. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2003
    Location:
    Brockville, Ontario, Canada
    Seriously, this quite a blurry line. When people are talking about something like racism (or some other topical subject) within context of the show it's inevitable to bring in real world examples and experiences as a comparative standard from which to assess the accuracy or calibre of what we're seeing onscreen. If you can't discuss comparative examples from the real world then the discussion of the subject at hand becomes essentially meaningless.

    If the examples and ensuing discussion are "on point" in regards to the subject discussed from within the show then it's definitely relevant and cannot fairly be prohibited.
     
  15. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    Well, after TMP Spock finally realized his "Logic is better" stuff was all BS and it ultimately led to an empty existence, so he finally realized he'd be better off just accepting his irrational human side. He had a far more content life after that.

    After the TWOK/TSFS thing wherein McCoy had Spock in his head, he toned down the racism.
     
  16. Captain Tracy

    Captain Tracy Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2011
    Location:
    OMEGA IV
    Considering STAR TREK was specifically designed to be - by its intent and in its execution - a vehicle for the writers to comment specifically on our 'Modern Society' - through the use of parallelisms and allegory - by examining the human condition, and more specifically, the human experience against a futuristic backdrop.... Without which, not only makes any discussion 'Meaningless', as you say, but is totally contrary to Roddenberry's original intent; and is wholly against his personal writing philosophy that the "only STAR TREK story worth telling IS when its "personal".

    Which is why the examination of topics like RACISM, CULTURALISM, WHATEVERISM, be it against SPOCK, or KIRK, and thereby inciting a thought provoking exchange of ideas, opinions. and perspectives - was the real MAGIC of STAR TREK.

    Gene knew people of ANY race, culture, religion, or whatever would carry their DIFFERENCES of their INDIVIDUALITY into the future,.. and if MAN was to remain MAN, and the Human Race survive as a species, they were going to have to figure out how to 'get along' DESPITE those differences,...

    and not by pretending they do not exist - or speak of them - or embrace them, through submission of the mind, free will, and individuality -to the point of becoming a mono-colored, mono-thinking , mono-cultured, mono-everything,... humongous Amoeba of no distinctive characteristics, personality, or perspective.

    That is Ultimate Slavery in its worst form; it is the complacent acceptance of slavery of the HUMAN SPIRIT.

    But, until I receive an initial PM from T'Bonz, and get these 'new rules' clarified and defined, I am not sure if I can even personally thank ANWAR (The Ram) for sharing his PERSONAL opinions on SPOCK, based on his first-hand experience with RACISM in the MODERN WORLD,.. where in the USA, it is true many Elementary and Junior High Schools now forbid one team to WIN - as the other team would by default be the 'Losers' - And, even though he forgot to answer my question if he shared the same opinion as I do regarding the hypocrisy of SPOCK wearing a UFP uniform ::AHEM:::

    It is only through the understanding of each others PERSPECTIVES which is going to get our DIVERGENT species through the Aeons; and that can only happen through the exchange of our opinions, attitudes, and personal experiences in a censorship-free society.

    Roddenberry knew that; that's why we even have such a show to TALK about today.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2013
  17. BeatleJWOL

    BeatleJWOL Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2012
    Location:
    Winston-Salem, NC
    Seems Roddenberry had the same thought, at one point: http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/New_Humans
     
  18. Trekker4747

    Trekker4747 Boldly going... Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2001
    Location:
    Kansas City
    Just to chime in here... Spock and McCoy were supposed to be friends. It didn't always come across this way, for sure, but they were friends. So McCoy's jabs at Spock was one friend picking on another. Sure, McCoy may have gotten heated in his rants on Vulcans and it may have extended past Spock at times but McCoy couldn't be racist if one of his closest friends was a member of that race.
     
  19. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Location:
    Regina, SK, Canada
    Thing is though, like you said there were plenty of times where it was hard to believe they WERE friends they way they swiped at each other. So it comes off as more a cases of inconsistency that looks better in hindsight (especially the movies toning it down and giving them both character development).
     
  20. TremblingBluStar

    TremblingBluStar Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2005
    Location:
    Fort Dodge, IA
    I am glad this subject was brought up, because when I was going through TOS a few months ago, I was rather shocked by how Spock was treated at times by his subordinates. I can't point to any specific examples that haven't been noted, but I certainly got the impression that the writers never agreed on Spock's role, or the relationship between Vulcan and the Federation.

    Take, for example, that McCoy said early on the Vulcan was conquered, implying that the Vulcans didn't enter the Federation voluntarily (though this is debatable). I recall it being mentioned later in the series as well.

    Spock's race was sometimes Vulcan, sometimes Vulcanian. It wasn't simply a matter of them not settling on a name until later in the show, as Vulcanian was used in the third season as well.