Anti-Spock racism/general disrespect for the XO

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Dale Sams, Jan 12, 2013.

  1. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, I was born in the 80s but I am a visible minority myself. Wasn't raised very differently than most other folks where I grew up though, so I don't think there were vast cultural difficulties for me. I did put up with some racism in my teens though.

    And I don't see anyone I work with reacting in those ways. Current folks are tougher than the old codgers ( ;) )think we are.
     
  2. 1001001

    1001001 I Like the Beats and the Shouting Moderator

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    :rolleyes:

    Or, we're evolving to a more tolerant, understanding, and compassionate culture, and racists, sexists, and homophobes are going the way of the dinosaur.

    Kinda like...you know...Star Trek.
     
  3. Captain Tracy

    Captain Tracy Commander Red Shirt

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    Oh, so then in-point-of fact, being born "in the 1980's", as you now reveal - which is pretty close to what I guessed, 1989 or thereabout, though you remained evasive in your response - means your schema was formed primarily with the 1990 social re-conditioning agenda via Media/School/Social, active and in place, hence the attitudes you embrace and reactions you have regarding the 1966 STAR TREK characters normative on-screen behavior.

    Another thing to consider, is if you were raised in the USA from say 5 to 18 anytime during the 1990's, if so, it would make it even harder for you to do the cultural comparison of pre-1990 and post-1990 pro/con, having not lived through both in the socio/religo/politico cognitively-aware sense.

    Here is a quick self-test to see where you are coming from:

    During your "formative" youth, was there then, any currently produced TV shows airing AT THAT TIME - NOT RE-RUNS - where a WHITE MAN - who was NOT acting in his capacity as a Government official - who punched ANY other characters (not as comedy) on a regular basis?

    The answer will determine what social-conditioning agenda your were exposed to through Media/Social/Education government indoctrination programs.

    If you answer 'AL BUNDY', understand he is purposely set-up to portray white men who grew up on the old Media-fueled social conditioning program as buffoons and 'wrong',.. a 'negative reinforcement', to show young minds how "bad men" behave, think, and will FAIL in life,... and how YOU will meet the same fate if you behave like the "bad man" in the coming 'Socialized New Age of Globalization'.

    Since TOS is so iconic, and wholly responsible for all the TREKS that followed, did you ever bother to ask yourself WHY there are no other captains who regularly PUNCH IT OUT, and say things like: THEY ARE __(race/culture other than us)____, and we KNOW what a __(race/culture other than us)____ is!!!!" - Errand of Mercy(?)

    If you answer, "because man has 'advanced' past such brutal tactics',.. or,. well you see, the UFP and ____ are now 'friends', everyone is the same,.... you are not looking at what message 'Big Brother' is really televising.

    Anyway,...

    What puzzles me though is why you seem to be so hard on SPOCK, as with what you have revealed in the above post,.. I would think he would be the one character you "reach" more than any other.

    Can you explain?

    But BACK TO ON-TOPIC SPECIFIC,...

    Oh and yes,.. YES, BOMA is totally out-of-line, a danger to his fellow crew members, and totally insubordinate (and possibly a racist too, as the hostility level and disdain for SPOCK and his Logic-driven culture, exuded by Don Marshall is potent!! - Are the Trek writers trying to show you something, not overtly spoken in the script?... Hmm,, could be ;))

    Oh, and sorry you had to deal with Jerks growing up,.. just remember Jerks and Bullies come in all shapes, sizes, colors, religions, and sexual-orientations,... they are just at their worst when they abuse their position and numbers, just to give others a hard way to go,... in the end, its just their way to make themselves feel better about themselves,....pathetic,.. sorry to hear you had to experience that.
     
  4. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    Not everything about the past was bad and not everything about the present is good either. Things change and evolve. Some things certainly get better and other things certainly get worse.

    I was born in 1959 and I remember the 1960s and '70s and I don't remember a lot of it as being of the "dark ages." Yes, a lot has changed for the better since then, but some things are worse today. A lot of people are definitely oversensitive today to the point of ridiculousness. I can't stand watching or reading the daily news anymore for the all the bullshit some people get worked up about. I think the public displays of supposed shared community grief is mostly insincere and fake. Indeed grief isn't much private anymore and often seems to be measured by what level of display can be put on television. Personal tragedy and grief are often hyped as some sort of community or collective experience.

    There have always been slackers in school so there's really nothing new in that. And there are some very intelligent young people with us today. Yet there are also a discouraging number of intellectually lazy and often even incurious youth today with no interest or remote curiosity in the histories or sciences (in terms of wanting to understand how things work) or politics. Those individuals are just ripe for getting exploited in years to come. What's even worse are those who flaunt their ignorance as some sort of badge of honour. Yes, there does indeed appear to be a disturbing trend of anti-intellectualism afoot on this continent (the U.S. and Canada).

    In terms of racism I don't know if things are really that much better. From north of the 49th parallel it certainly looked like a whole swath of Americans were doggedly determined to unseat and/or frustrate a democratically elected president using every means and excuse they could think of simply because they couldn't stand the colour of his skin.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  5. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In the city where I live, folks were upset over a pregnant 14 year old who was kidnapped by her boyfriend. You saying we shouldn't be upset by something like that?
     
  6. scotpens

    scotpens Vice Admiral Admiral

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    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaPBhxXhprg[/yt]
     
  7. T'Bonz

    T'Bonz Romulan Curmudgeon Administrator

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    OK guys. Trek talk only. If you need to get more general or talk about modern society, there are other places on the BBS to do so. Thanks.
     
  8. Captain Tracy

    Captain Tracy Commander Red Shirt

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    ANWAR - My question to you regarding your expressed seemingly unsympathetic perception of MR. SPOCK in your earlier posts as it relates to RACISM/GENERAL DISRESPECT TOWARDS SPOCK remains unanswered by you.

    I would like to understand your viewpoint on MR SPOCK; as I find it incongruous since having learned of your shared experience with the subject matter at hand; which is the key factor in the formation of your perception of MR SPOCK in this matter.
     
  9. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Like I said, it's because he KNOWS humans really aren't that bad compared to his own people yet the way he talks he acts like they are.

    When he tells McCoy that humans have a tendency to not care when millions of people die vs when individuals die (the "Immunity Syndrome" I think) was rather unnecessary and I don't get why he felt the need to take a swipe at him in that situation. And heck, the Ancient Vulcans probably slaughtered like that all the time and similarly didn't care.

    And what about the Klingons and Romulans, they probably kill a lot more yet he never brings them up.

    Honestly, he should know better than anyone on the ship that just because they act emotional NOW it doesn't mean they'll always be "barbaric" (because compared to the other aliens they meet, they aren't) and if the Vulcans (who were worse than humans) could get better than there's little point in dissing humans.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  10. A beaker full of death

    A beaker full of death Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Tip-toeing about on eggshells, making sure you properly identify a person's race before you address them, is hardly more tolerant or more understanding. It's just more self-congratulatory and superficial.
    A buddy of mine is sick of being called "African-American" -- he points out that he's never been to Africa and wants to be simply considered American. For that matter, he's mighty sick of people assuming he must hold certain views because of the color of his skin. That said, he and I joke a lot about racial topics. He calls me a cheap Jew; I call him a lazy schwartze. We're buddies, comfortable joking that way for the very reason that we don't believe these things for a second.

    Soledad O'Brien keeps doing specials on what it means to be black in America. Fuck me, I didn't even know she was black. Nor do I care.

    Obama got a Nobel prize for being elected while half-black. Is that the kind of world you applaud?

    As for homophobic, I don't give a rat's ass where people stick their genitalia. Not my business. That doesn't make me homophobic. Just possessed of good taste.
     
  11. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That doesn't really happen as much as the Old Codgers ( ;) ) say it does. Maybe it's just an American thing.

    Would you say that stuff to someone you didn't know that well? A casual acquaintance?

    Would you rather we go back to reading via candlelight, because Electricity was changing things too much? XD
     
  12. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Recently we had this "Is TNG: Code of Honor racist?" thread, in which the basic reasoning was "the actors are all black, therefore it's racist". So replace white, pointed-eared Leonard Nimoy with a black actor, change NOTHING ELSE, and then review it again regarding racism. I guess some of you might come to entirely different conclusions.
     
  13. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes. He was able to convince a majority of Americans that he was the best person for the job regardless of the color of his skin.

    No small feat...
     
  14. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Lockdown in 5...4..3..
     
  15. Captain Tracy

    Captain Tracy Commander Red Shirt

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    ANWAR - Yes, I understood which scenes we were referencing, and how you view them; but thanks for trying to bring me some clarity, just the same.

    The difficultly I am having is understand Why your personal experiences with racism are not reflected in your view of MR SPOCK in case where RACISM is directed toward him.



    BEAKER FULL OF DEATH - It is interesting how the 1966 STAR TREK writers (clever are they) used the character of LOKAI (LTBYLB) to further show how those who outwardly and actively trumpet being members of an oppressed 'community' met a society which gave them freedom from that oppression in an environment - which as you say 'Did not give a rats ass' as to which end of their body received the big make-up tube.

    If you will recall, LOKAI abused that freedom and violated the rights of the ENTERPRISE CREW by running about, aggressively trying to jam his personal agenda down the throats of any unsuspecting victim he could, even when his intended victims expressed they 'Did not want to know'; or in one scene, on those he was able to lure into a group setting, by promising a rewarding oral performance.

    The STAR TREK writers adroitly used parallelisms to combat CENSORSHIP & TARGETED THREATS OF RETRIBUTION - being the working tools of those who abuse their position of authority to promote their personal agenda - designed purely to serve their own end - while simultaneously attempting to discourage any open and free exchange of ideas which may invoke critical reasoning among a people - as that open exchange of thought would surely cause the cracks of the 'Agenda Pushers' to be exposed, and reveal their corruption.

    It is interesting how the symbolism & parallelisms contained in the 1966 STAR TREK stories remains topical and relevant today on issues of RACISM.

    But,..perhaps we have missed the another message illustrated by LET THAT BE YOUR LAST BATTLEFIELD by the overt misdirection of the RACISM theme.

    And perhaps that may explain MR SPOCK, and his apparent attitude toward LOKAI and his apparent issues,.. maybe he senses something more sinister is lurking under the covers in this story,... and at the bottom of it all.

    In either case, regardless of his race, LOKAI is simply a badly behaved character, and a perfect reflection of those who trumpet their oppression to advance and meet another end.



    By the way, is anyone else suffering from being "Punted Off-line" every 30 seconds or so, and having trouble posting?

    I assume this is purely a technical reason.

    Hmmmm,,...
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  16. A beaker full of death

    A beaker full of death Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, LTBYLB gets a bad rap because it's considered so obvious and facile an exaggeration. And yet, the divisions we make over sometimes undiscernible skin tone distinctions are no less absurd. That was rather the point.

    hmm, not sure... been a while since I've seen the ep.
     
  17. A beaker full of death

    A beaker full of death Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Of course not. But the writers of Star Trek are depicting people who are intimate friends, and comrades in arms.
    There's a lovely scene where Lincoln calls Uhura a "charming Negress," and immediately apologizes. She is bemused by his feeling the need to apologize, as there's simply nothing wrong with being black.

    No. I'd rather a world where the president get evaluated for his qualifications and record rather than his skin tone. That's the world Star Trek tried to depict. That's the world Dr. King spoke of. A Nobel 6 days into office? Really? For what?


    Veering back to the subject matter:
    We know that Nimoy's wardrobe was originally slightly different from the rest of the cast's, to further set him off as different. I've always believed that Nimoy brought a lot of the Jewish experience in America to his portrayal of Spock - always the outsider, deeply private, with an unknown, practically mystical (and much misunderstood) mystique about him.
     
  18. Redfern

    Redfern Commodore Commodore

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    Maybe it goes beyond some people's sensitivities today, but for some time I've theorized that part of McCoy's "needling" of Spock was literally for the half Vulcan's physical and psychological well being. Maybe earlier in his career, Bones studied the case file for Spock, his being a gene spliced hybrid. Maybe some members of the original medical team who assisted and monitored his gestation, birth and early development noted that Spock should NOT favor the cultural norms of one species to the total exclusion of the other as that could &^%$ up a very delicate hormonal balance (i.e. totally suppressing his emotions, or even the opposite).

    When McCoy takes his position of chief medical officer aboard the Enterprise, he reviews the records Boyce wrote that in summary stated, "Spock is not your 'average' Vulcan. Don't let him bottle his emotions. It can make him literally sick if not possibly kill him!" So, in his less than "silk glove soft" bedside manner, McCoy is urging Spock to "lighten up", if only for purely medical reasons.

    That's my take on it, anyway. And, as Beaker pointed out, close friends can sometimes be the most caustic towards one another rather than with strangers.

    Sincerely,

    Bill
     
  19. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    I've seen it happen often enough.

    You're taking my statement out of context. Of course a story such as you cite is naturally upsetting. But repeated stories of someone feeling slighted or offended for some presumed offence that isn't there gets tiresome real fast.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2013
  20. Captain Tracy

    Captain Tracy Commander Red Shirt

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    it
    The exact same reason why KIRK has an award-record a mile long. Think it through,... again the KEY lies in applying STAR TREK parallelisms.

    Whether for Heroism, Military Action, or Humanitarianism it all boils down to one thing and one thing only - Positive reinforcement Marketing tokens given out as rewards for good behavior in advancing the ultimate UFP agenda - To bring all planets, and their people, under the rule and standard of the UFP cultural ideal and control, by absorbing those cultures deemed 'correct', or 'correctable' with UFP 'aid', or destroyed as 'Dangerous' during "an act of self-defense" while invading their home world.

    KIRK is a Poster-boy for the 'Agenda Ideal' of his moment, so he MUST be held up and recognized to show the sheep where to look for what is being accepted as "good" in the 'New Way'.

    That's why.

    LOL!!! Just wait till they roll out the next one they have waiting in the wings,. your head is going to spin.

    Again,.. use the STAR TREK parallelisms,.. look at the design change over time in the IDEAL ROLE MODEL CAPTAIN,.. sensing a change here from Saurian Brandy, to Earl Grey Tea, to ______. Yes, STAR TREK is 'AHEAD OF ITS TIME,.. by about 15 years of impending cultural and behavioral standard.

    As to the ANTI-SPOCK RACISM as it relates to his RELIGION,... we are NEVER shown this to be an "ANTI-SPOCK" cause for issue - in fact, quite the opposite - SPOCK's obviously Cabalistic practices, beliefs, and culture are of great benefit to the UFP agenda, and therefore we are only shown this in a positive light and every example but one - AMOK TIME (but then BIG PHARMA steps in to save the day,.. bah, of course!).

    Obviously the ONLY UFP APPROVED RELIGION is JUDEO/CHRISTIAN, personified by KIRK/SPOCK,.. even though we are TOLD: "We honor all religious beliefs".

    Really?

    Because we are SHOWN a UFP approved Judeo/Christian culture every time a UFP members religious beliefs are an integral part of a scene.

    HOWEVER,...every other religion the UFP encountered, then met with the nozzle-end of a phaser - Apollo, Landru, Va'al, etc, - and given a photon torpedo enema.

    So while SPOCK didn't catch any ANTI-SPOCK heat for burning incense, using psychic abilities, or refusing to eat meat - remember these are UFP approved religious practices,..

    And you'll approved them too - in 15 years time, or so - or get a "Bonk, Bonk" on the head.

    However, being just ONE, among an all Human crew, I think the bigger reason is SPOCK KEPT HIS PERSONAL BUSINESS TO HIMSELF, and didn't go around pulling a LOKAI,.. and then run crying to KIRK, that he had been 'offended', when he was told take his bag of Vulcan VooDoo and jump-off.

    Oh, and yes,.. KIRK will be labelled a DINOSAUR, eventually vilified, and made out to be an 'Evil Brute' from the past,...

    "We have no such primitive thinking THESE days".

    That is, once the UFP has all the Galaxy 'Signed-up' as 'Subscribers', or Destroyed by KIRK and other "rugged Starship Captains" of his "TYPE"

    And to keep the sheep-like masses from getting any bright ideas about EVER acting up against the UFP control in the future,..

    Or creating any upset within the civil population by collecting into bands of like minded, like-appearing, like_____ people,.. ANY non-acceptance of UFP approved standard will be deemed a HATE CRIME committed by a TERRORIST.

    And since he no longer will serve a need to the UFP agenda - having been fulfilled - and since his attitudes will be branded as ANTI-UFP, INDEPENDENT THINKER, SELF-ACTING, a 'BAD MAN' - he will be labelled a _______ phobe,

    Personal possession of Disputers will be strictly outlawed of course,..

    And the TELE-TUBBIES will be given the ENTERPRISE, via government-funded grant, turn it into an intergalactic Disco/Club House for everyone,.. no one excluded, after all, 'we're all the same',.. even robots!,..and go cruisin' with Captain Twink.

    "I. Robot",.. ? No, more like "Ay Carambe!"

    So no,.. the JEWISHNESS of SPOCK will never be called into a contentious scene of RACISM/CULTURALISM,.. only a positive scene.

    After all, its the UFP way!
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2013