Angst-Ridden Dating Rant #17

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous' started by Kommander, Nov 5, 2013.

  1. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    She didn't "screw up", she made a choice that was not you. You may think this was a bad choice but it was hers to make. If she was still interested in you she would have kept seeing you and not started seeing someone else, it's as simple as that.

    One thing that strikes me is you seem to talk about women as though they can be manipulated and tweaked into making relationship choices, as though it's you versus other guys and the women are the chess pieces and you are trying to decide what your next move and counter move with the other guys should be.

    You can't actually tweak a situation in such a way that it produces your desired outcome. Women make their own decisions.
     
  2. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    As strange as it may sound, I don't think the problem is overanalyzing things. It sounds more like you're over rationalizing reasons why you shouldn't take a step toward asking this current girl out.

    Honestly, reading your reply to Robert Maxwell began reminding me of Woody Allen's early career as a neurotic standup comic, only his material's better.
     
  3. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I also once thought I needed to “help“ the girls I liked. And by that I mean trying to talk them into making decisions that I liked.

    But the fact is that all you can do - the only right thing you can do - is telling the truth, and that's it. For example, if her boyfriend threatened you when she wasn't around, just tell her that. And THAT'S IT. Don't scheme, don't persuade, don't lie. Tell her ONCE and move on. Respect her decisions.

    In the case you described above, you could have asked her if she really thought that he was the right guy for her. Once. And if she needed help that you'd be around. Again, say that once and then move on. If she agrees with you, that's all you needed to say. If she doesn't agree, then persuasion won't make any difference.


    My advice for you would be:
    - stop using Facebook and other social media that much
    - stop making up these conspiracy stories. Take things for what they are: plain and simple
    - learn to tackle things in a direcf fashion: either ask someone out or move on, for example
     
  4. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    Yes, but again: this is not your problem to solve. It only involves you if and when you are in a relationship with this woman and it is affecting that relationship somehow. Unless and until that happens, there is little point wasting brainpower on it.

    I'm seeing two possibilities here:

    1. Something about you causes this reaction, and perhaps you should figure out what it is and change it.
    2. This isn't really happening the way you think it is, in which case something is flawed in your thinking.

    Given the way you've described your love life in this thread, I am not sure what sort of measure you are using for "turn out okay."

    I agree that your judgment needs work. Bouncing it off of people here is fine, but if that's what you're after, don't get so defensive when people respond!

    Okay, but here again you are giving us reasons why you act the way you do. Are they there for us to excuse your behavior and attitude, or are they there so you can justify it to yourself? You seem to have acknowledged that you need to change. How are you going to do it?

    Preparedness is not a bad thing, but the extent to which you obsess over it is. It is entirely possible to be prepared for various emergency situations without fretting about them constantly. I also think it's a bit silly to compare emergency situations like car accidents to how you approach a woman about her ex. There's an order of magnitude (or two) between those scenarios, yet you're spending a lot of time and energy on the less important one.

    Do you go to therapy or anything? I'm not asking as a joke. Your attitude sounds quite obsessive/compulsive and it may benefit from professional attention. It's at least worth investigating, if you haven't already. I am not a psychiatrist, after all.

    ETA: Also, listen to what teacake said and stop thinking of this as a game in which you have to "beat" another guy to "win" the girl. It's skeevy.
     
  5. Kommander

    Kommander Commodore Commodore

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    I didn't say she screwed up because she dated this other guy instead of me, I say she screwed up because she dated the guy in itself, and because she told me she screwed up. She pretty much hates the guy now, and still has to deal with him because he's the father of her oldest kid.

    Had she continued dating me instead of this other guy, that probably would have been screwing up as well. Her and I weren't romantically compatible. I'd like to think it wouldn't have been as big of a screw up, but there's no way to know that because it didn't happen. As it is, she just got married to the guy she started dating after breaking up with the guy she had her first kid with and, while I have not met him yet, he seems like a decent guy and I like him based on what little I know about him. I'm focusing on the men I don't like because of the context of the thread, but most of the women I know that are in relationships are with men and women that I find to be decent people and very likable.

    Would you people please stop interpreting everything I say in the worst way possible?

    You mean like how at the barest hint that I may be repeating past mistakes and haven't learned anything I make a bigger deal out of it than is reasonable, giving me a reason to hesitate and probably eventually backing off while patting myself on the back for successfully avoiding a mistake instead of trying to date this girl and opening the possibility of actually making the same mistake again? I think this is very likely.

    As did I. Did you miss the part where I said "in the past" and that that implies that I realize now that it was wrong? That being said, I agree with the rest of your post, except for the parts that imply that I don't already realize this.

    It only involves me if it is causing her stress and I notice that it is causing her stress. But yes, it is not my problem, and I'm not trying to make decisions for her, despite everyone assuming that I am for some reason.


    3. They're ass holes and should be dismissed as such. This kind of thing happens more than seems reasonable, but still not very often. I also have had a tendency to give ass holes more attention than is reasonable, so it kind of makes sense.

    Good. If you were, I would dismiss anything you have to say. Mental disorders are legitimate medical conditions and making fun of those that have them or seek treatment is just as stupid as making fun of someone for having a heart attack or going to the hospital after having one.

    Possibly. Although, I have a very high IQ (I'm not telling anyone what it is). I process information very quickly and am hyper-observant. What looks to be obsessive behavior in me is actually pretty effortless and doesn't cause me much if any undue stress. However, it is up to a psychologist to determine if it constitutes primarily obsessive OCD or if there is another problem.

    I am a psychology student, and I do not view therapy negatively. However, I do not have medical insurance and, even if I did, there's a good chance this kind of thing wouldn't be covered because, unfortunately, mental health care is often considered a luxury by the idiots that run things, and I cannot otherwise afford therapy at this time. If I get into the Ph.D. program I want, the medical coverage I get will cover it, and the university I'm transferring to next year may have something available that I can manage. Whether or not OCD is an issue with me, I definitely have issues with depression that need to be treated.

    I think I'm being stereotyped for starting "this type of thread" again. I do not think of it as a game. The closest I have ever come to thinking of it as a game is the perception that everyone else thinks of it as a game and, if I wanted successful relationships, I had to start thinking of it as a game because "that's just the way the world works." I tried to think of it as a game, but that ultimately didn't work because there is no one way the world works, and seeing it as a game is pretty stupid. Some of this may have shown through when I was talking about the past, but it is not part of my current outlook.
     
  6. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    That makes it sound like you enable them.

    I take mental health seriously. It's not a laughing matter.

    A high IQ doesn't mean you're any good at dealing with people. Often, it means the exact opposite.

    I guess you haven't kept up with current laws, then. Insurance plans being sold from now on must have mental health coverage. Although, if I recall correctly, you should qualify for Medicaid but live in a state that refused to implement the expansion, so, uh... yeah. I wish I could help you more there.

    People are seeing you this way because the way you approach the whole situation looks highly adversarial and competitive, i.e. a game. I think you've spent more time talking about assholes in this thread than the actual women you are/were interested in.
     
  7. Kommander

    Kommander Commodore Commodore

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    Possibly. My usual approach to ass holes isn't to dismiss them as such, but to try to understand why they are being an ass hole. That, and my tendency to believe that, if someone is being an ass hole, it means that I did something wrong when in reality, it's probably just that they're an ass hole.

    I wish more people shared this attitude.

    I am very aware of this. My brain works differently than that of most people, and that does make it difficult to understand others. A lot of people like to brag about having a high IQ. While there are some benefits, it's more of a personality disorder than anything else, and really not something to brag about. I've noticed that relating to other people is easier when I'm drinking; my brain starts to work more similarly to other people's, especially if they are also drinking. However, using alcohol to fix problems is not a path I want to start traveling, so I need another option.

    No, I wasn't aware of this. Good news is always welcome.

    I don't know for sure that Medicaid has not been expanded, but considering I live in Michigan and Rick "the Dick" Snyder is governor, I'd be very surprised if it was. Anyway, the worst case scenerio is that I'll have to take out more in student loans to pay for a plan provided by the university. More loans aren't a big deal.

    I'm complaining about people who are adversarial and competitive about such things, therefore I must be one of them? That conclusion doesn't make any sense to me. Something along the lines of "you probably see this sort of behavior frequently because you try to date women that find it appealing. Maybe try dating different women, ya dumb ass?" That seems like its just as likely. But no, the correct conclusion has to be the one in which I'm the biggest ass hole.
     
  8. Use of Time

    Use of Time Commodore Commodore

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    Kommander why don't we table all of this jealous boyfriend stuff for the moment and just start from the top. Do you wish to pursue a relationship with this woman as of November 15, 2013? If so, do you think you are prepared to ask her out in some capacity, even if it is just spending time together as friends. If you are unprepared to flat out ask her on a date, simply spending time together in any capacity can give you subtle indicators of her level of interest, which if I'm being honest, is the biggest unknown component in this thread. I know that given your past issues with relationships it will be difficult to avoid anticipating problems before they occur, but try to treat this situation independently if at all possible. I guess what I'm asking at this point is, do you have any plans to move forward here or have you already declared this relationship out of reach?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  9. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    I wasn't even aware you had done previous threads on a similar kind of topic. All my reactions are based on how you're appearing in this thread, which started on 4 November, and you're still trying to decide whether to ask this woman out. Either you will, or you won't, but it seems like you're determined to talk yourself out of it.
     
  10. Timby

    Timby LIKE LIGHTNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING Administrator

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    I don't think you're being stereotyped. I think people are reacting the way they are because you're coming off as very adversarial, and every time someone brings up anything even remotely resembling a cogent point (to say nothing of the folks like RobMax and Melakon and MrAwe who have been consistently hitting the nail on the head), you act as though you have to have an answer for it. You can't just sit back and say, "You know what, you're right;" you act as though you need to battle back and say "but there's this, that and the other." Example: You randomly bringing up your IQ out of nowhere, which isn't germane at all to the conversation except to give yourself an excuse to say, "See, I have an explanation for acting this way."

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're coming across as the person who's in a room with 20 other people, and thinks he's the only sane person and everyone else is an asshole.
     
  11. Kestra

    Kestra Admiral Premium Member

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    This sums up my take on the thread as well. Good post, Timby.
     
  12. Kommander

    Kommander Commodore Commodore

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    No idea, I'll see what happens.

    I was referring to threads like this in general, not just ones I've started. And yes, the core of the issue seems to be that I'm trying to talk myself out of asking this woman out. I really don't have the slightest idea why. I probably picked up on something that indicated that dating her would be a bad idea, or I'm just afraid of repeating the past. That's probably why I jumped on the possessive ex idea once it occurred to me. It gave me a scapegoat to explain my misgivings without it reflecting negatively on her or on me. I can't really pin down what it is specifically at this point. The best thing for me to do at this point is to continue talking to her without trying to push things in a romantic direction and just see what happens. Either I'll realize what was wrong and then decide whether it means I should back away or not, or I'll realize that nothing is wrong and there wont be a problem.

    Everyone who is not me has the information I've provided in this thread, and possibly other posts I've made. I, being me, have much more information. If someone says something that seems plausible based on the available information, but I believe to be not entirely accurate, I provide more information. Not to imply that I think they're wrong, but hoping they'll reevaluate what they said and take the new information into account. You see this as argumentative and just dismiss it because 1) you expect it from someone starting these kinds of threads (i.e.: stereotyping), which has nothing to do with me, and 2) the hostile, ridiculous tone I used when writing the OP, which is definitely my doing, and the reaction is understandable. This is not simply a case of everyone else is completely right and I'm completely wrong, that never happens. I have admitted to being wrong about some things and, from what I can tell, I'm the only one that's taken new information into account and reevaluated my position. When someone argues with me while being uncompromising and condescending, they're going to have a difficult time trying to convince me of anything. Most people don't respond well to that kind of tone, why should I be any different?

    Yeah, except for all those times I did. Like, when everyone said I was over-reacting to the pictures the ex posted and I said they were right. Or when a few people identified the core issue as my hesitation with this particular woman, or that the OP was a poorly-executed clusterfuck... You're the one who is being uncompromising, not me.

    How is explaining myself an excuse? Of course there are reasons why I do the things I do. I'm trying to be better understood, I'm not demanding permission.

    As for the IQ thing, it's a perfectly legitimate explanation for my tendency to over-analyze and apparent obsessive behavior. For someone with a closer to average IQ, the amount of analyzing I do would take a lot of time and effort, and one would have to be obsessive to accomplish it. When I do it, it doesn't take a lot of time, and the only real effort is typing all this shit. Everything I've said in this entire thread is the result of maybe 20 minutes of thought and analysis. Not only is it relevant, it's probably the most relevant thing I've said in this thread.

    I never said anyone posting in this thread is an ass hole, or even really thought it. However, that isn't nearly as ridiculous a situation as you made it out to be. I've been the most sane person in a room with 20 others a bunch of times, they're called "family reunions."
     
  13. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    All you can do is ask her out. It's up to her to say yes or no. If she declines, well at least you tried, so don't do anything to look like you're begging. But putting yourself through this emotional turmoil isn't healthy (I say this as a stroke survivor).

    Even if she says no, there's no reason why you can't still be friends. Some people reconnect with people they knew after decades of separation and start all over again. Just keep your options open, and don't look at it as a door slamming permanently in your face unless she so indicates.

    On the other hand, don't blow your chance if she winds up asking you out instead.

    And maybe try to avoid busy places like Starbucks.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  14. Use of Time

    Use of Time Commodore Commodore

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    I'm trying to figure out what the endgame of this thread is supposed to be. I mean at one point Locutus shut it down because it wasn't really going anywhere. Kommander asked him to open it back up but that only served to rehash the same points of view. Kommander you are giving some pretty flippant answers to legitimate questions almost like you don't want to discuss this anymore. Why did you even bother to ask Locutus to open it back up again if we are just going to keep going in circles trying to figure out what you should do. What exactly is it you want from us?

    Good luck to you and I hope you can find some happiness through all of this. God knows you aren't the first person to have conflicted thoughts about a potential significant other.
     
  15. rhubarbodendron

    rhubarbodendron Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Because he's one of those people who always need to have the final say (literally).
     
  16. An Officer

    An Officer Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Sometimes maybe people just need to talk, without a conclusion... sort of unload and find relief through sharing.

    I doubt Kommander will make a thread like this again, some of the responses were quite harsh and unforgiving... it's unfortunate we get so many of these type of threads that never seem to have a conclusion, it's desensitized many of us to this sort of plight!
     
  17. Mr Awe

    Mr Awe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The moral of this kind of thread is to just ask the girl out! If she says "yes", have a nice time. If not, move on!

    It's really not any more complicated than that but Kommander seems to have an entire extra layer drama that is happening, at least in his head. I don't mean that as an insult at all, but hopefully he recognizes it as something to sort out.

    Mr Awe
     
  18. rhubarbodendron

    rhubarbodendron Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I basically agree, An Officer, but I'd like to point out that the harsh tone was on both sides. I am not sure if you have a similar proverb but in my country we have one that fits this situation perfectly: The way you shout into a forrest the echo will come back.
     
  19. Kommander

    Kommander Commodore Commodore

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    There really is no endgame, other than me saying "thanks for the input everyone, I'll take it into varying degrees of consideration." There was never another possible outcome. Eventually, people will stop providing input, and the thread will slip onto the second page, never to be seen again.

    Locutus locked the thread because it looked like I had lost interest in it, but others were still attacking me. I had been reading it, I just didn't have time to reply for a few days there. I did intend to reply, so the reason for locking it became invalid. There was the caveat that further conversation would be hopefully more productive, but I'm not in complete control of that.

    Yes. Could part of the problem here be that others were expecting a conclusion? That honestly never occurred to me; I was just looking for input.

    I'll definitely think twice about it, but I'm kind of bad about predicting my future actions. I can mostly see why this thread turned out the way it did, but the other two threads I will always see the hostility as completely out of line. The other threads came across as "this isn't something I would do, therefore you are wrong." The situations behind those threads didn't turn out in ways that I liked, but nothing I did made them worse or really changed the outcome at all. Same thing with this thread, really. The only difference is that I have a lot of potential to screw things up on my own here. Hopefully I won't.

    I've been in TNZ quite a bit. Nothing I can't handle.

    I thought like this in my early 20s. The result was I asked a lot of women out, I went on a lot of first dates, and things fizzled out before a second date. That approach to dating works for a lot of people, but it doesn't work for me. The women I've been involved with beyond a first date I did not meet in the context of pursuing a romantic relationship, and the romantic interest developed little by little.

    So, I discovered what does work for me to some extent. The problem is, letting it happen on it's own doesn't work all the time. Mostly letting it happen on its own while occasionally giving things a little push seems like it would work a little better. Figuring out when to give a little push and occasionally a big push is difficult, and what is giving me pause right now.

    Saying "just ask her out" to someone who has not tried that approach is probably good advice, and has worked for a lot of people, which is why so many are quick to suggest it. For me, however, if the first date doesn't come about organically, it's probably not going to work.

    Ok, here's why being simple about things doesn't work for me. There is a social template for dating, a way that people are expected to act. Part of this is that people are typically on their best behavior. If I'm dating someone and they stick to the social template, it prevents me from getting to know who they really are. It also causes them to appear to be dishonest and that kills any attraction I have for them. On the other hand, when I go for baseline behavior rather than my best, it can come off as "if this is his best behavior, what's he like normally?" or like I just have no capacity to self-monitor; that I'm not aware that my behavior is different from what's expected rather than it being a conscious choice. If I can remove the dating context and just spend time with someone, none of this happens. I'm free to be myself, she is free to be herself, and we can actually get to know each other. The problem is, removing the dating context is extraordinarily difficult. I need to figure it out, or try something else entirely, as I already know just doing what everyone else does doesn't work for me.

    You know what? You're right. (Hey look Timby, I've shown personal growth. :techman:)
     
  20. rhubarbodendron

    rhubarbodendron Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    LOL you're just trying to flatter an oldtimer who has friends in the BR and the Admirals' Lounge :p
    Keep growing!
    (Why do I have the feeling that while this was grammatically correct it's not 100% ladylike..)