Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador kit!

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by GodThingFormerly, Aug 8, 2007.

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  1. Basill

    Basill Captain Captain

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    Ooooo! A poll! I say, the bigger the better. :D

    btw. Great work Andrew. I've always loved that painting. Even though I love Rick's Enterprise C, to this day I still envision the Horatio from Conspiracy, which was never seen as anything but debris but revealed in dialog to be Ambassador class, to have your original design's outer appearance.
     
  2. JJohnson

    JJohnson Captain Captain

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    Mr. Probert,
    Thanks for taking the time to read through these forums, and I appreciate that you take the feedback here into consideration. My only gripe with the Ambassador class was the whole bridge issue, especially that of the 1701-C. It seemed a little small, especially in the transition from the 1701-B to the 1701-D configurations; perhaps it was simply a mission-specific module that was due to be swapped out for a regular bridge? What would a stock bridge from 2325 or so look like for the new 'flagship class' of the fleet?

    Thanks again,

    James
     
  3. FalTorPan

    FalTorPan Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    I haven't been stashing the various work-in-progress images that Andrew has posted. Would someone email them to me? My email address can be found on my web site:

    Trekplace

    Andrew, would you be willing to allow me to host previous WIP images on my site? If not, then no problemo.

    Thanks!
     
  4. Probert

    Probert Starfleet Design Red Shirt

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    Knock yourself out.

    Andrew-
     
  5. FalTorPan

    FalTorPan Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    Thanks! I'll upload them within the next 48 hours. And thanks to the person who emailed me the images that I neglected to save. :)
     
  6. alpha8

    alpha8 Cadet Newbie

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    I am really pleased how it's shaping out. I like the elements Probert is choosing from the Excelsior Class and the Galaxy Class. I also like the elements that are unique to the Ambassador...that vertical impulse drive on the dorsal is very interesting.

    The secondary hull is going to a real pain, I bet, to design.

    Oh well, I'm looking foward to the next update.

    Dave
     
  7. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    Andrew, a quick question... the "ribbed" area on the dorsal... what's your intention for what that is?

    I'm sure it's not just for appearance, and I'm trying really hard not to simply conclude that it's for "her pleasure" so I'm sure it's there for a reason.

    The only logical explanation I can see is that it's a radiator region... intended for rejection of waste heat. Which is really fairly reasonable considering the proximity to the impulse reactor (and, presumably, the warp core).

    Am we on the same page here?
     
  8. Probert

    Probert Starfleet Design Red Shirt

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    Uuggh,... actually, it is.

    The only reason it's there, frankly, is as a carryover element from Excelsior, so you'll have to ask good old Bill George what the Hell he had in mind for those ribs, 'cause they never made any sense to me,... along with those impulse fins.

    You see, my intention here is to create a visual bridge between Enterprise-B and Enterprise-D. I didn't originate those ribs so I have no idea what they're there for. They've been reduced in size, on Ambassador, because the following Galaxy class has no trace of that... feature.

    One element unique to Ambassador will be it's vertical main impulse engine, which obviously returns to a horizontal configuration in the succeeding class of starships.

    That's what happens in design lineages. New technology is implemented and if it doesn't quite work, after years of use & modifications, it's changed to a new improved version. Or reinvented from an earlier incarnation. A good example of that today is the radar system of the Aircraft Carrier Enterprise CVN-65. They employed a superior system that didn't work as expected so they went back to an earlier version.

    Yes, whenever I design something myself, most, if not all, of the elements do have a purpose.

    Andrew-
     
  9. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    I wonder if you have any sense of just how cool it is for us to have you here explaining yourself... yourself. :thumbsup:
     
  10. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    Well, that's fair enough. That said, however... maybe ya'oughta consider establishing (at least so far as your design goes) that these ARE radiator panels.

    I'm assuming you "get" the comment I'm making, but for the sake of others here...

    All vessels and equipment generate waste heat. (So do organic beings, but that's a different matter.) And part of maintaining a steady-state thermal solution for any system problem is developing a balance between thermal energy generated and thermal energy rejected.

    In an atmosphere, you can feed air current over a surface... in an ocean, you can do the same with water. But you have to reject the waste heat into a medium.

    In space, you don't have that... so conduction and convection as means of heat transfer are eliminated. You only have radiation as a means of heat transfer.

    Heat transfer by radiation is ruled by a set of rules that you can look up easily enough... the "ideal radiator" is the so-called "Black body." A black body is a perfect radiator and a perfect receptor for radiation-based energy.

    You've all seen that... black objects get much hotter in the sun than, say, white ones (which REFLECT electromagnetic energy, as opposed to black objects which absorb it). What you may not realize is that it works the other way as well... a black body radiates heat much more effectively than a lighter body does.

    In space, the only way to reject heat is by radiating.

    On, for instance, the ISS, you see large movable solar panel arrays that collect electromagnetic energy and convert it to electrical power. But there are other panels on the ISS that aren't solar panels... they're radiator panels. The always have the black surface facing away from the sun (the sun-side is masked by reflective coating to minimize absorption while the the radiating side faces towards deep space to maximize radiation.)

    The space shuttle has radiator panels mounted on the inside of the cargo bay doors. That's why you always see the shuttle with the bay doors open anytime it's in orbit,regardless of whether or not it's actually transferring any cargo.

    Well, in the Trek-i-verse, you have similar devices (though presumably somewhat more efficient and effective). On the 1701, you have an array of panels on the nacelle pylons, plus a pair of "intercoolers" which seem to serve a radiator function (both by name and by design). The 1701(r) has similar construction but has even more apparent "radiator-like" surfaces... on the outboard side of the nacelles and on both sides of the nacelle pylons. Those are ideally-placed and constructed to serve as heat-transfer-by-radiation facilities.

    So... I have no idea what Bill George originally intended re: this but it seems perfectly reasonable that it would be part of that thermal management system, 'specially when you recognize that what's arguably the hottest element of the ship... the matter/antimatter reactor core... goes right down the middle of that section.

    My assumption is that if you looked at an image of the Excelsior taken on infrared film, the rings surrounding the nacelles and the radiator surfaces on the neck would be the hottest "non-firing" elements of the ship. (Obviously, at least to me, the impulse engine would be hotter when actually FIRING.)

    Since it SEEMS to me that your warp core is in that region on the Probert-Ambassador, and since you're clearly trying to replicate the appearance of that feature (meaning the same coloration as well as the "ribbed" appearance which is so typically indicative of the most effective radiator devices... perhaps with each rib containing a "heat pipe?"...

    Well, it just seems like a no-brainer to go ahead and say that this is a radiator and establish this once and for all.

    Unless Bill George chooses to step in and correct his original design-intent, I mean... if he were to do so, and were able to give a good answer besides "it looked cool and future-y".

    Yea or nay?
     
  11. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    On his Ingram interpretation of the Excelsior design, Guenther characterized those vanes as being part of a "dorsal precise sensor package". Instead of exhaust, IIRC they were for intake of interstellar matter that would provide further information about the ship's surroundings.
     
  12. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    Well, the term "exhaust" isn't really what I was talking about at all... I'm not talking about a transfer of mass, either in or out, just a transfer of energy (in the form of heat transfer through radiation).

    I know that T.G. called it that, but let's be fair, his work is no more canon than any other fan-produced work. I ENJOY his stuff (and most everything else which has been produced in the "fanpub" realm) but his description of the rationale behind this detail just doesn't feel "real" to me...

    (Of course... "if you're wondering how they eat and breath, and other science facts... repeat to yourself 'it's just a show, I should really just relax'.") ;)

    Ultimately, this is Andrew's baby, he can decide that they're anything he wants. To me, the idea of them being waste heat rejection just makes the most technical sense.

    Your mileage may vary... as always. :D
     
  13. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    I understand, but if they are heat vents, why in the world would they be forward and not along a trailing edge? In the position they are in, they will dissipate heat just to have it picked back up again.

    And Guenther has the edge on other fan publishers in having done the "official" 1701-D layout, a job for which he bent over backwards to discern Andrew's original intent.
     
  14. Probert

    Probert Starfleet Design Red Shirt

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki




    Okay.

    Andrew-
     
  15. Probert

    Probert Starfleet Design Red Shirt

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    His poor back. Why didn't this fellow just ask me?

    Does anyone have a link to this 'layout'?

    Andrew-
     
  16. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    He did the pencils for Rick Sternbach's Pocket Books blueprints. The layout of the saucer section is his (while Rick did the secondary hull). Having been involved in some discussions with him at the time, I recall that finding out what you intended was very important to him, but I can't remember why it wasn't done. I'll try to find out, but it might have something to do with being prohibited from using any part of the original Ed Whitefire drawings (which you were consulted on IIRC).
     
  17. aridas sofia

    aridas sofia Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    Okay... I contacted Todd Guenther and this is the gist of the story:

     
  18. Turbo

    Turbo Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    That's unfortunate that they couldn't contact Probert, though I have the blueprints (in storage at the moment, no storage space at college), and they're extremely well-done.
     
  19. Data Holmes

    Data Holmes Admiral Admiral

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    Sounds like Corporate Pocket Bullshit (CPB) to me...

    Same reason why we never saw Mojo's book, or any major TrekTech books in the last five years.
     
  20. Cary L. Brown

    Cary L. Brown Rear Admiral

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    Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

    Again, it seems you're missing the point. I'm not talking about VENTS of any kind whatsoever. NO MASS IS TRANSFERRED.

    I am talking about RADIATOR panels. Devices which transfer heat by emitting photons, the majority of which are found in the infrared range.

    As such, they really need only one thing... to have their normal vectors facing into open space in all circumstances.

    You need to understand, this has NOTHING to do with "vents" whatsoever. And to understand that this isn't "Treknology" I'm talking about, it's REAL technology and real science.

    Here's the ISS.
    [​IMG]
    There are solar panels in two primary clusters... one set of which is found on the US side (eight panel segments at either end of the Canadian-made main truss), and another slightly smaller cluster of eight in a "spread flower" arrangement atop the Russian side. There are also a pair of fold-out panel sets on the Russian Zarya and Svezda modules, but those are not really intended for use once the main truss is in place.

    You'll also note, however, some additional panels which are NOT solar cells. There are two sets of three of these panels extending off of the main truss, inboard of the solar panel arrays. There's also an array of radiator panels extending from the side of the Russian side's service tower, underneath their solar cell array.

    (Side note - the entire Western section of the ISS (consisting of the US main modules, with the Japanese experiment module and exterior platform, the Canadian truss structure, and the European Space Agency Columbus module), and the Russian side, are essentially two completely independent space stations, held together by a single dockign adaptor. It would be a trivial matter of undocking and disconnecting a handful of quick-connect harness junctions to split the ISS into a "NATO" and a "Warsaw Pact" side and have two totally independent stations in orbit!)

    Back to the topic... really, you just need to understand that what I'm discussing has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with "vents" of any kind. It's a radiation emitter panel, nothing more and nothing less.
    I'm not "dissin'" T.G. I like his work. All I'm saying is that while he may have interpreted this to mean one thing, his interpretation is in no way binding. Hell, I think that elements of M. Jeffries' work allow for significant interpretation (I won't bring up the 947 vs 1080 debate other than to point out that this is one such issue IMHO).

    None of this Trek stuff is real, obviously. My mindset, then, in looking at this hobby is to try to make it fit with reality as I know it. Todd's work is also hobby work... granted, he's made money from this (as have you), whereas I haven't... but most of what we do, we do for fun.

    I just don't feel compelled to accept everything said by Mr. Guenther to be Holy Writ from On High. Doesn't mean I dont' respect his work or don't enjoy his work. And naturally, you're welcome to prefer his explanation, noooo big deal either way... right? :thumbsup:
     
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