Ancient Aliens

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by BillJ, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Something irrelevant, because hardcore skeptics and debunkers aren't the kinds of people you should be trying to convince with evidence. Mainstream science has a considerably different standard of proof.

    Accepted!

    I want positive evidence of direct alien intervention that DOESN'T take the shape of an inconvenient in scientific/historical/archeological data. A sample of alien technology, for example, or a fossil for a life form that is structurally fundamentally different from anything found on Earth.

    IOW, I want essentially the same thing that scientists in sci-fi movies want shortly before ACTUALLY MAKING that pinnacle discovery: firsthand evidence, recovered by discovery, NOT by the clever extrapolation of circumstantial evidence.

    The reason you're getting so much flak from skeptics and debunkers is because everyone knows you don't have THAT kind of evidence, but you continue to behave as if you do, or that the evidence you DO have ought to be as convincing as the solid firsthand evidence the rest of us are thirsting for.

    Really, it's like you claiming that you bought your house for just $5000 -- no mortgage, no loan, just cash -- and then when pressed for details claiming "Well I didn't actually pay $5000 cash, but when you look at the accounting and the terms of the mortgage and my savings, that's what I'll end up paying."

    It's a claim that's too good to be true, and it probably is.

    Actually, I would prefer to see just the aliens (your hairy ass in the middle Times Square is totally optional), especially in preference to the notes and findings that we BOTH know are suggestive at best. Indeed, if you HAD two live aliens to show people as proof -- or better yet, two dead ones we could dissect and run comparative genetic studies -- we would not still be having this debate.
     
  2. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's the quintessential summary of your last post.
    Taking my quotes out of context (many times removing the explanation) and then repeating yourself, under the mistaken assumption that, by repeating them, your refuted claims gain value.

    Or simply repeating yourself, being under the same mistaken assumption, newtype.

    Indeed, it doesn't mean that.
    Making a straw-man means creating the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

    You engaged in quite a few straw-men - and various other logical fallacies - in your posts, newtype.
    To be fair, though, in your last post you did try to spin some of your previous straw-men, making them somewhat more accurate.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2012
  3. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Castellan, sorry to tell you, but you don't have an open mind.
    It's quite the opposite - you're a true believer:
    The evidence you presented proves absolutely nothing (just to name some examples: the photo is clear - no hazy day, bad angle, whatever; wild conspiracy theories; you have no aliens to present; etc).
    Despite this, you behave as if your asserted claims are, beyond the shadow of a doubt, true and correct.

    Meaning, you unbendingly believe something is true without proof. That's called faith, NOT open-mindedness.
     
  4. Vanyel

    Vanyel The Imperious Leader Premium Member

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    Yawn. I'm through with this thread.
     
  5. Balrog

    Balrog Commodore Commodore

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    Hey, look! The woman from Charlie X!
     
  6. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Exactly so - that's the kindest thing that can be said of someone who refuses to accept that which has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    To describe such a mindset as "open minded" is downright Orwellian. :lol:
     
  7. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I believe in extraterrestrial life being out there....somewhere. I think there are species much more advanced than we are that have had successful civilizations longer than we've walked upright and worn clothing. But I don't have any concrete evidence to prove any of that and I don't walk around ever pretending that I do. Belief in something that might be very distinctly possible is one thing, but saying that you can prove it and everybody who disagrees is some fool or idiot who has been brainwashed into going to sleep is another.

    There is no face on Mars. The Cydonia mound was a trick of lights and shadow at the time of the 1976 Viking 2 mission to the planet. It was essentially one enormous Rorschach test that allowed a lot of people to see a humanoid face with eyes, nostrils and a slit-shaped mouth. I'll admit, it looked a hell of a lot like a humanoid face with a hairline.

    But it's not. It's just a natural rock formation of some sort that's the result of eons of wind and possibly ancient water erosion. The Cydonia region is no more or no less interesting nor peculiar than any other part of the current Martian landscape unless the "Face" believers want to make it a bigger deal.

    If somebody wants to prove the existence of alien civilizations and life, these kind of discredited conspiracy theories being pushed by guys like Dr. Richard Hoagland are not the way to go. The truth is probably going to be a helluva lot more fantastic than some dusk or twilight shadows being cast on an ancient rock formation and turning the whole thing into a huge ink blot test for conspiracy theorists.

    Open your mind not only to the possibilities and the potential wonders....but also to the very good chance that some of the things you believe in were never true to begin with. Complete and total bunk used to sell books and promote personal careers. The cosmos is neither the "we're the only life in the universe" scenario nor the "government is covering up everything for some sinister underground agenda" setup that their respective cheerleaders believe they are.
     
  8. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Isn't it, though? You use the word "breeding" and then cite characteristics that apply to evolution and speciation as if they were the same thing.

    But they're not. Breeding is not evolution. Breeding is the process of selecting mates through completed sexual reproduction.

    The problem with this is that YOU keep supplying strawman positions and then accusing me of attacking them. For instance, you included in your previous post some idiocy about my "happy ending politically correct version of evolution" which is so divorced from anything that is contained in any of my posts that I've long since stopped wondering if you even know what the fuck you're talking about and are just arguing for argument's sake.
     
  9. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, I kind of think the truth is likely to be LESS fantastic and sort of esoteric, the sort of thing that drives a lot of excitement in molecular biology or astronomy circles but the average person only gets because Jay Leno makes a couple of jokes about "Well they found aliens on that planet... apparently it's microscopic bacterial life forms. We don't think they're hostile, but just in case, NASA's stockpiling hand sanitizer in preparation for the coming war." Nobody laughs, but they get the idea.
     
  10. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That is true depending on one's point of view, but to me - and I speak solely for myself here - I'd find news of microbial, plant or even some form of aquatic life on a world inside our solar system to be a stupendous and enthralling piece of news that I'd celebrate. Oh sure, it's not a sentient civilization that could attempt to intelligently communicate with the human race on Earth as equals or even our superiors, but alien life on another celestial body other than Earth would be very exciting and wondrous to me.

    That all by itself would set the hardcore religious evangelicals to fuming and drooling because, to paraphrase the late Rev. Jerry Falwell when news about possible microbial fossils in the Martian meteorite was made public in 1996, "the only life in the universe is that we already know about and it's here on Earth, otherwise God would have told us. We are God's greatest creation and there's nothing science can tell us that a true Christian doesn't already know."

    Even if the life form discovered were nothing more sophisticated than, say, primitive single-celled organisms living and reproducing beneath the ice sheets of the moon Europa it'd be more than enough to set off some of the religious conservatives in our society who don't like their narrow, rigid construct of how the universe works disrupted by something as wicked and dishonest as science. But no matter how crude or advanced the life form would be, I'd celebrate and cheer when it was discovered and made public knowledge.
     
  11. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, you and I would celebrate because we are unrepentant science nerds.

    The religious right would shit bricks, because they're sociopathic nutjobs on the fast-track to irrelevance.

    And everyone else would go on with their regularly scheduled program, barely noticing anything.
     
  12. The Castellan

    The Castellan Commodore Commodore

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    Actually, it's mainly Biblebelt Christians and Evangelicals who shit bricks......other cultures.....the Hindu, the Dogon, the Zuni, the Hopi, and so on, would not be shitting bricks.

    I'd not be going back to my regularity scheduled program, since, no matter because why do you wanna? Plus when life is proven out there, the world changes, and there's no going back....why would you wanna go back.

    Plus, with intelligent life, I've said this many times, our solar system is very young compared to the others. We're the new kids on the block, both literally and figuratively. And those systems, billions of years ahead of us, would have technology we could only imagine. They probably have faster than light travel, anti-grav, and so on.

    Thing is, how much can government be trusted in the truth? I mean look at the overrated SETI, their policy is that if they do find an actual alien radio signal, they feel they need to keep the truth secret until they talk to the authorities and than it's up the the US government to decide if we're worthy of the truth, and let's face it, governments these days, especially America's, are not known for doing the right things and in our own interests....like someone said here, http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=197308 governments make policy to allow politicians to be corrupt and letting them get away with it. Lies were used for the Vietnam war and the war in the middle east today, as well as so many other things that's screwing us over. Hell, you can't even post anything about Princess Diana on facebook, because it gets taken down within hours, friend of mine posted some interesting info involving the accident, but the FB bosses took it down, and that's just peanuts compared to big things happening. For example, in 1952, Washington, in front of the world, when UFO's were hovering over the capitol, had general Sanford downright lie that nothing was happening and his captain even said he was lying, and had the papers telling him to lie. I think sending government officials, elected or not is not a good idea....I think some of the smaller guys might have better ways than them, and the event should be done democratically, with a small d, and non hostile, and not the paranoid, military industrial complex doing so. "But what if they start attacking us?!" you might ask.....if they want to attack us, they can do so, very comfortably from orbit, maybe even further away, with just the flick of a switch and either blast the surface with whatever they got to use, be it lasers, neutron bombs or viruses, and we'd never see our attackers or even know what happened. Plus reading reports from people in the military coming out to say their own experiences in where UFO were seen and somehow 'switching off' their nuclear missile silos, tells me, it's a non hostile thing, a sign of peaceful force. I like to think of it as this: If you see 2 bratty kids getting into an argument, and it begins to get physical, and both brats pick up big, pointy sticks.....what do you do? If you're a responsible, moral and intelligent person, you go between them, grabs the sticks and throw them away before one or both the kids lose an eye or something. Same with this, that's how I feel about the UFO presence, they could have destroyed or conquered us easily, but they did not. I think they want to help us.....would not surprise me if some of the aliens races out there are more humane than any human could dream of being.....wanting to see us grow up finally and not end up killing ourselves over resources, different takes on god, and politics. I mean why do we send aid to 3rd world countries, sending food and medicine, because it's the right thing to do, helping each other out. I could see aliens, some of them anyhow, doing the same for us.

    And to any Christians and Evangelicals who'd freak out about alien life.......the Vatican in 2008 said alien life does not negate the belief in god. If anything, that should strengthen your belief in your god, since if we were alone....your god first went overkill with making a huge universe, and only putting us in it.....plus if we WERE the pinnacle of his creation, he sure messed up because we are not doing too well, right now. Plus with the presence of alien life, it can allow more flexibility to these hardcore religions, since rigidity would be a moot point, showing that differences are not such a bad thing.

    Whenever we meet alien life from out there, one thing's for sure, the world changes, drastically. So I say break out the party favors, for there will be much to celebrate for that day. :techman:
     
  13. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Who did you THINK I was referring to when I said "the religious right?"

    That's because you would not fall into the category of "everyone else."

    Or they could by ten-foot-tall catlike pre-industrial tribesmen who still haven't invented metallurgy or architecture yet. It could go either way.

    Pretty well, actually, considering their otherwise complete inability to keep any secret known by more than five people. As a rule, the more newsworthy a secret is, the more likely it is for some yahoo to leak it to the press "under the condition of anonymity."

    That's because SETI has a secondary military purpose (SIGINT, for one thing) that they don't like to talk about. They used to devote a portion of their radio telescope network to intercepting traffic from Soviet space missions and satellites, trying to figure out what the Russians were really saying when they thought nobody was listening.

    Which, like most things related to space exploration, is the only reason SETI managed to continue to exist as long as it did. Now it's been grandfathered in and nobody's thought to question its relevance in the post-Cold War era.

    And everyone who was paying attention knew about them almost immediately. Case in point.

    And nobody noticed, or at least few enough people noticed that thirty years after the fact UFO hunters couldn't find more than a dozen people who had lived in Washington at the time who had any recollection of this at all.

    Evangelicals don't give a shit what the Vatican thinks. Ironically, neither do conservative Catholics, who are exactly the kind of people who would freak out about the whole thing.
     
  14. backstept

    backstept Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't think this has been posted yet. It's super long, but very much worth watching.

    [yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9w-i5oZqaQ[/yt]
     
  15. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's been a while since somebody mentioned a good, juicy Moon Landing Hoax theory. We might be way overdue for another one.
     
  16. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

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    That reminds me - we need a remake of Capricorn One, so we can have it without OJ Simpson...
     
  17. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Best Idea of the Day.

    Good one.
     
  18. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

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    Of course we'd need replacements for Gould, Savalas, Holbrook, and Brolin as well...
     
  19. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They were so good it'd be hard to top them, but Josh Brolin could easily replace his dad in the role of Brubaker. He resembles his father and is just as good an actor if not better, so it's a win-win for any future producer of a remake.
     
  20. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

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    Yeah, he was good in True Grit..