Ancient Aliens

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by BillJ, Jun 19, 2012.

  1. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I will start by saying that I think RAMA's notion that technological singularity will happen in 50 years is all but excluded - indeed, the notion that the technological singularity is possible at all, given the psysical laws of the universe is in serious doubt (and is closer to being disproven that proven).

    These being said, the argument you just presented, newtype_alpha, is also highly unconvincing:
    -so, only a fraction of humanity will have access to changing themselves to be smarter and stronger.
    And?
    Evolution was NEVER an equal possibility process.
    This fraction of humanity will outcompete the rest - as in they/ their descendants will survive and the rest will dissappear, going the way of the dinosaurs -, as has happened many, many times in the history of life on Earth.
    -even today, very few natural disasters can endanger a race of humanity as a whole - these are the type of disasters that endanger all of humanity (a gigantic asteroid, few others).
    The regional disasters you mentioned don't even come close.

    You seem to think that all competitors surviving and having a share of the future is a requirement of evolution. Very 'happy ending', but the opposite of correct, newtype_alpha.
     
  2. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And that's just plain old "survival of the fittest" evolution like we've already had for millions of years. Significantly, we don't actually control which genetic modifications become the prevalent ones, or which populations in a competing genetic arms race actually win the battle for supremacy. Just because intelligent agency is involved doesn't change the underlying mechanism.

    It's a requirement of the type of evolution Stephen Hawking has in mind, where humans evolve based solely on what they NEED, not on the determinate and ruthless (and considerably slower) process of natural selection.
     
  3. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Of course the underlying mechanism doesn't change.
    What does change is the fact that slow random genetic mutations are replaced with fast intelligent modifications, genetic OR otherwise, which WILL give desirable traits (intelligence, for one).

    It remains ruthless. But it's no longer slow.
     
  4. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Duration doesn't necessarily reflect quality. The fact the Ancient Aliens show is still on the air tells us that.
     
  5. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But humans still cannot directly control which traits proliferate and which ones die out, especially on the timescales on which evolution actually occurs. Measurable speciation can take hundreds or thousands of generations to produce consistent phenotypical differences, and then even longer for those emerging (and otherwise superficial) racial differences to actually produce a separate species.

    You might as well suggest that the sudden prevalence of diabetes and autism are major turning points in human evolution. The fact is, evolution occurs with gradual trends over a ridiculously long period of time; even things that buck the trend -- a genetically modified race of superhumans, for instance -- wouldn't even register on nature's evolutionary radar, UNLESS we were able to maintain the genetic purity of that modified race for something like half a million years and prevent them from ever cross-breeding with ordinary non-modified humans. I don't really see that happening unless the superhumans either colonize another planet and then glass the Earth on their way out, or the entire human species bombs itself back into the stoneage and starts over with the isolated pockets of survivors from around the globe.

    No, it's still quite slow. The thing a lot of people don't understand is that the genetic makeup of a species ALREADY has a lot of variation built into it, so even genetic modification only takes place within the standard margins of allowable variations (e.g. locating and activating genes that correlate with higher intelligence or athletic ability). That's really just artificially raising the frequency of specific traits already inherent in the human genome.

    Those kinds of changes aren't evolutionary changes. If the entire human race became four times smarter and with across-the-board natural immunity HIV and cancer, we would still be human beings, albeit a distinct RACE of humans that has never existed before (a certain passionate statesman once referred to such a strain of enhanced humans as "the Master Race"). Evolution, though, doesn't work with the goal of improving species, but merely adapting them to their environment. So over, say, two million years you end up with a race of extremely athletic humans with no body hair, extremely pale skin, and on average are thirty percent smaller, with vastly reduced color perception in favor of greater acuity of fine detail.

    In other words, whatever we INTEND to create with the Master Race, the fickle and slow acting forces of evolution may inevitably transform us into a race of albino colorblind dwarfs. Not because anyone PLANNED it that way, but because from the aggregate of highly successful offspring producers over the millions of years humanity existed, the ones who produced the most offspring just happened to carry a slightly larger proportion of the "short/pale/hairless" genes than the "tall/bronzed/fuzzy" genes.
     
  6. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    newtype_alpha

    Natural evolution works by selecting from many random mutations the VERY few that are actually beneficial.
    'Artificial' evolution would work by selecting from highly beneficial mutations the ones that are the most advantageous.
    Meaning, it will be blindingly fast by comparison to natural evolution.

    And yes, evolution works by selecting the ones best adapted to an environment.
    But we know certain abilities are advantageous in any environment which contains resources above a certain, relatively low level (intelligence) and certain abilities are advantageous in today's environment (carisma, beauty, etc) - and such will be the traits most likely artificially encouraged to manifest or even inserted from the ground up, changing the make-up of the genetic pool of the future ruling class of humanity. One can be quite sure that such traits will proliferate once released into the human society 'wild' (direct control - perhaps not; indirect control by such predictive means - almost certainly).
    Again, the conclusion is that evolution will be lightning fast.

    And during evolution, the 'fickle and slow' in the environment, the ones less adapted - in the future, perhaps, the ones too poor to make themselves thrice as smart, beautiful and resistant to disease, etc by merely undergoing a treatment - are the ones disappearing. They have no say in the future evolution of the species - they never did in the past: the "short/pale/hairless" genes survived because, in that given environment, they were better than the "tall/bronzed/fuzzy" genes.
    I told you before, newtype_alpha - your 'happy ending', politically correct version of evolution has little in common with the actual thing - whether natural or artificial.

    As for a 'super-race', genetically pure, etc - that's non-sense. A species, race that doesn't evolve, changing, adapting continuously (gaining traits that are better in its environment) cannot be called 'super' by any relevant criterion; it was - and is - just the wet dream of many demonstrably failed/contradictory to reality ideologies throughout history.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  7. Vanyel

    Vanyel The Imperious Leader Premium Member

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    Could disease also play a part in evolution? A pandemic of some highly virulent form of the flu, lead to accelerated evolution? I'm thinking of a pandemic with a survival rate of ~1%? Or would that be too much for any species to overcome? Or would pockets of humans start clustering together again and start evolving differently in different areas?

    Or is Kirk Cameron right? And the cultivated banana is a sign of God's work? Sorry I gotta make fun of Kirk Cameron whenever I hear or am in a discussion on evolution. And besides a crockaduck would be so cool to have.
     
  8. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Half right. The mutations don't actually need to be beneficial, they only need to correlate more strongly with survivors (who produce a lot of offspring) than early dyers (who produce less). TRAITS can be beneficent, of course, but it takes a long time for any combination of mutated genes to produce consistently identifiable traits.

    Blue eyes is a relatively clear example: they're no actual benefit to HAVING blue eyes, but that particular trait correlates more strongly with people who overall have lower skin and hair pigmentation, which itself is a trait that has become beneficent over time. Significantly: there is no one mutation that causes a person to become blond white and blue-eyed. That is the result of TENS OF THOUSANDS of discrete mutations all layered on top of each other. And even then, there's still enough variation in the genotypes of Europeans that if their climate were to suddenly change, in another ten thousand generations they would probably turn black again.

    That's not evolution. That's medical therapy you only have to take once.

    Really, you've sort of got you terms muddled up here. Even if it were possible to genetically engineer an entirely species from scratch, that still wouldn't be evolution, since that species didn't actually evolve. On a much longer timescale producing small but useful variations in a single race, still isn't evolution. That's called "breeding" and we've been doing that with animals already for thousands of years (we've also been doing that with royalty, but I repeat myself).

    You're describing a process that works over two or fewer generations, doesn't involve natural selection, doesn't produce a new species and doesn't produce a distinct genotype as an end result. That's "artificial evolution" inasmuch as a basketball is an "artificial moon."

    ... is a a strawman and a figment of your imagination that is also totally unrelated to anything I have ever written in this thread.

    Unless, of course, they all pick up machineguns and massacre the modified humans in a holocaust of irony, achieving global victory only because of their superior numbers and greater willingness to resort to violence. This is the thing that you -- and many geneticists -- don't understand about evolution: what WE consider beneficent and what NATURE considers beneficent are two completely different things. Ultimately, it's just as likely that a ruthless man with a tendency for subversion (and an inborn knack for hitting moving targets with a rifle) could be better adapted to survive than a super-intelligent pacifist with a photographic memory and a high respect for authority figures.

    Indeed, it's impossible to assume that the "loser" traits that currently exist among humans actually ARE non-beneficial in evolutionary terms. It's not hard to envision environmental conditions in which laziness becomes a valid survival technique, where snap-judgement prejudice is usually the safer position, where the survival of the species could actually depend on the willingness of males to rape their female counterparts. Intelligence and strength are things that HUMANS value, but it is not necessarily something that has evolutionary value.

    Which is why "artificial evolution" is so much bullshit. Even the best geneticists in the world cannot control -- let alone predict -- how those genetic modifications will affect the human species except in a very limited scope and in a very limited timeframe. To assume otherwise is to assume that the technological paradigm that allows for genetic modification in the first place would become a permanent fixture in human society, relatively unchanging for thousands of years.

    And yet in the whole of human history, virtually nothing we have EVER created -- no government, no institution, no technology, no culture -- has ever endured long enough to affect evolutionary change in humans, even if they HAD the technology to do so. Ironically, the few human societies that DID make any concerted effort to pursue a genetic upgrade -- either by breeding up or by eliminating undesirables -- either collapsed much faster or gave up those policies after they became untenable. Apparently the drive not to be expunged from the human gene pool is ALSO a beneficial survival trait.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
  9. Brainsucker

    Brainsucker Commander Red Shirt

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    So, what if... the alien is human being from another planet, and they have visiting our planet numerous time with their FTL ships? And because they are human being, no body know about their where about.
     
  10. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There exist deleterious traits in the human population that were likely maintained because of heterozygote variations that conferred disease resistance. But what you're talking about: a fast spreading superdisease that probably uses multiple vectors and kills off 99% of a population is science fiction. That it would be conductive to human genetic variation? The opposite would be true in a prehistoric era with low populations.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  11. Edit_XYZ

    Edit_XYZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Mutations correlate more strongly with survivors - wits lots of offspring - on a consistent basis ONLY when they're beneficial.
    Mutations that are neutral depend on random chance to correlate consistently (and the chance is quite small).
    Mutations that are disadvantageous do not correlate at all with survivors on a consistent basis (to be exact, them correlating is HIGHLY improbable).

    What you just wrote here is accurately described as straw-men and forced semantic interpretations:
    Evolution does NOT work abruptly, producing a new species from the beginning (that's a straw-man); evolution produces races different from the ones existing and goes from there.
    Genetic therapy will do just this - creating de facto new human races with significant differences in their genotypes from baseline humans.

    Natural selection - AKA selections of the most adapted to the environments - will most definitely be involved once the subjects of genetic therapy leave the hospital.

    Breeding IS evolution (the breeded most adapted to their environment survive, becoming a new race of their species; in a relatively short time, with mutations accumulating, even a new species).

    Newtype_alpha, in order for you to have an argument, you want to restrict the concept of "evolution" to only something that happens naturally, with no intervention from intelligence and on a very long timescale. That's a failed semantic forcing: you see, the concept of "evolution" has no such restrictions - except in your own mind.

    :guffaw:
    newtype_alpha, you forget, your posts are there for everyone to read - for example your non-sense about evolution not being possible because only a small subset of the initial population will have access to genetic therapy (read - mutations designed to be advantageous in the present and likely future environments), etc.

    And here you're reduced to try to name EXTREMELY IMPROBABLE future environments in order to give your supported position some credence.
    And personifying "NATURE" to some transcedental, unknowable entity.
    And coming with ad-hoc, unsupported assumptions such as "willingness to resort to violence" only for a specific group, etc.

    newtype_alpha - I already told you, we can predict the most likely future environments. And, guess what? Intelligence, resistance to disease, etc are advantageous in all of them.

    And another thing - the human species lives not in a single environment, but in a multitude of environments.
    The chance of all these environments becoming of the extremely unlikely variety you are so desperate to advertise, for any length of time, is practically 0.

    And another batch of staw-men:
    No society in human history had the technological means to give a person specific desired traits via genetics (not even the current human societies have the technology to do this - yet).
    Having the delusion of being able to do this is NOT the same as being able to do this. And it's no surprise that irrational fanaticism such as this will lead to a society's downfall (due to its influence on society, economics, politics, etc).

    And another one - that the genetic therapy changes in the genome will not be transmitted the old fashion way, but that each new generation will have to go to the doctor for their "brain pills".
    Or your assumption that becoming more intelligent, etc equals reaching some imaginary peak of genetic perfection.

    And yet again you come with extremely unlikely future scenarios for the sole purpose of creating irrelevant what-ifs as arguments for your points:
    For example - that advanced technology will disappear from human society in thousands of years.

    Yet again you transform nature into an unknowable entity, etc.

    PS - in conclusion, your entire post is made up of straw-men, extremely unlikely what-ifs and attempts to muddle the ideas discussed by forced semantic changes and ad-hoc assumptions.
    As said - your "arguments" are highly unconvincing, newtype_alpha.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  12. The Castellan

    The Castellan Commodore Commodore

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    Well, the show seems pretty well quality to me, I got all the DVD sets of it that's been released so far. Also, I have shown it to some of the most closed minded or just average joe sixpack of my friends and family and they do admit the concept is fascinating and worth thinking about. And if the topic of that show bothers you so much, then don't watch, grab the channel changer and change, or get off your butt and do it manually.

    It also shows that people still will ask the questions mainstreamers, and Trek nerds, it seems, dare not ask.

    And to the ones who believe in the ancient alien theory as I myself do, don't be discouraged by the skeptics and naysayers. Like what Mr. Van Daniken himself said, "there's always going to be skeptic and critics" so to hell with what they say, and stick to your beliefs. Hell, when Copernicus and Galileo talked about the earth going around the sun, the authorities went after their asses. No real differences today....when a topic like this is brought up, there's always going to be venom towards it, but stick to your beliefs, and don't cower from it because the mainstream might get upset at you or ridicule you. Remember, we're in a world, unfortunately, that's so authority driven that they won't believe anything, unless a figure high in authority says it, even though we get lied to and deceived by said authorities....which makes no sense to me......I mean if your best friend sleeps with your girlfriend or boyfriend, you're not gonna still trust the fellow, right? Stand up for your beliefs, cause who's gonna if you don't, yes?:cool:

    And here's one for yas. mohenjo daro, what would cause what we saw there? People's bodies laying in the streets, as if something really horrible happened to them? Why is there evidence of animals never touching the bodies to feed on? Why do they give off a higher than normal radiation, and why has the city itself vitrified? And why is the radiation readings noticeably high there?

    I do wonder, if the ancient alien theory is proven to be correct, wonder if some folks here would go ballistic, seeing that we, mighty humans are not the masters over matter if that's the case.

    To the proponents of the ancient alien theory, if you wanna chat over it, PM me so we can trade contact names and discuss it without the drama queens, LOL'ers, and juvenile caption pictures. I would love talk with you all. :bolian:
     
  13. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    Since you brought up mohenjo daro, you might enjoy this link where they bring up the topic of the Mahabarata and aspects that sound like a high tech war in the ancient past. http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/arch08/080321mohenjodaro.htm By the way Castellan have you ever wondered how Da Vinci had such broad knowledge during an era of such intellectual vacuity? Maybe, Leonardo didn't really invent any of that. He just stole items from the Vatican Archives which had been transferred to Rome during the Roman Empire from the Library at Alexandria and contained lost texts from Atlantis. That's the real reason the Church wanted to suppress his writings, they were hiding the evidence of their real source. Much as the Mahabharata may be vague retelling of a long forgotten alien battle on Earth.
     
  14. The Castellan

    The Castellan Commodore Commodore

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    What about the radiation, the fact also that the people looked like they were running for their lives, and did not succeed, all strewn about as if something really terrible happened. Plus the bodies look pretty much new, and giving off radiation themselves. I think either an advanced human society or aliens were the cause, plus vitrified walls are seen in other places of the world, which also look like some really nasty combat was taking place.

    With ol' Leo, I would not be surprised, if he did, or the Vatican trying to hide it all. Since Alexandria was trashed, man really got dumbed down for ages.

    Also, these ancient societies not only handled stones weighing up to 1000 tons, many of them looks like to carved via machine, the super complex patterns to which they were cut were amazing, especially when they are so sharp, you can still cut yourself on them. Even the query sites show indications of machine or even laser cutting, the statue of Ramses and obelisks in Egypt show that, they look very very mechanically made, no one, no matter how good they are, can't do that by hand with copper chisels. Also, some hieroglyphs show what looks like large lightbulbs.....mainstreamers say they are lotus blossoms with their 'fragrance' going out.....but the smell of flowers, even giant ones, don't need support racks, which are shown in each of these hieroglyphs with said bulbs....the racks are holding them up.


    I'm impressed, Kodos, your mind is quite open. I like that.:bolian:
     
  15. Balrog

    Balrog Commodore Commodore

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    That Pat Boone would have made a better Khan than Ricardo Montelban?
     
  16. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Open-mindedness to fabrication, lies, wishful thinking and rumor is crap.

    [​IMG]

    Open-mindedness in the face of real evidence is a virtue.
     
  17. Silvercrest

    Silvercrest Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No problem! It's been switched.

    Oh, we've asked. And the only answer that doesn't involve preposterous assumptions is, "Not enough evidence; get back to me if you find anything."

    There's no harm in continuing to look for evidence, but it is harmful to try to convince everyone that it's true when you have no proof.
     
  18. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm sorry, but that's simply untrue: there is no such thing as a beneficial mutation. Beneficial traits correlate with survival, and those traits are usually the combination of tens or hundreds of discrete mutations, the combination of which becomes a new trait with enough staying power to actually BE inherited by a significant number of one's offspring.

    And I never said it did. I said evolution produces gradual variation in the genome through natural selection of beneficial traits over deleterious ones by the gradual accumulation of gene mutations to produce new traits over time.

    Genetic engineering doesn't produce gradual variation, doesn't involve natural selection, and doesn't produce new traits over time. Therefore it doesn't fall under the definition of "evolution" and there's no reason to pretend it is in any way similar to it, especially since genetic engineering itself would really only be a transient source of new information which would factor into natural evolution anyway.

    Of course it will. And genetic therapy is not evolution.

    Only on timescales much longer than human beings are in any way equipped to contemplate and plan for, which are timescales in which evolution plays out. In the very short term -- speaking in terms of a few centuries or a few millennia -- political, military and cultural forces play a far greater role than natural selection.

    No, breeding is breeding.

    I don't "want" to do anything at all. Evolution is a scientific concept with a discrete definition, one which you have chosen to expand to include things that otherwise have nothing to do with evolution.

    Genetic engineering and/or selective breeding can do all kinds of things for the human race, but it won't create a new species, and it won't directly affect evolution. For pretty much the same reason that strip mining and fracking won't affect plate techtonics and space exploration won't affect the Earth's orbit.

    Then you should probably start READING them instead of scanning for potential counterarguments.

    Certain people ARE more willing to resort to violence than others. That, too, is a beneficial survival trait, and conditions have existed in the historical past where it was the ONLY trait that really mattered.

    Not necessarily, especially from an evolutionary standpoint.

    You realize, of course, that we're talking about traits that correlate with a large number of offspring -- NOT financial or political success as such. A smarter populace might make the calculated decision to have fewer children, realizing that smaller families are easier to manage financially and emotionally, and also being smart enough to practice effective family planning. Meanwhile their stupider counterparts in the developing world continue to breed like rabbits, popping out litters of children that they can barely feed. To some extent this is ALREADY the case in western countries, where wealthier/college educated parents tend to produce fewer children than high school dropouts who don't even have the wherewithal to use birth control. What's more, it seems to be the case that highly intelligent women tend to pursue things like career goals and personal satisfaction rather than simply staying home and popping out children by the dozen.

    And those are the conditions we have RIGHT NOW, where intelligence is NOT a beneficent evolutionary trait.

    Which is why I mentioned selective breeding instead of genetics, and why I said "even if they had the technology," none of them survived long enough for the use of that technology to make a difference.

    I never said they wouldn't. Significantly, "transmission of traits" is not the same thing as evolution.

    Even if this is a safe assumption for "advanced technology," do we actually know that GENETIC ENGINEERING will still be possible -- or practiced, or even LEGAL -- three thousand years from now? It would be a hell of a thing to assume so, considering we do not even use genetic engineering NOW and there's even less to assume that if and when we start using it that we will continue to do so for anything like the time it would take to contribute to evolutionary changes.

    FYI, "Strawman" does not mean "something I assume you believe because I think you're wrong."
     
  19. The Castellan

    The Castellan Commodore Commodore

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    the infamous cat box image means nothing to me. this was even talked ab out o nthe news that day and a msnbc poll found more people than not believed the face is real and this was found to be a photoshop in itself plus it seems JPL, run by the infamous Mike Mallen himself, waiting just right for a hazy day on Mars, bad sun angle, turned the pictures completely around, and used a filter to make only certain things show, and adding shadows bunch of photoshop geeks were able to see through this....also, since 1992, we get no real live feeds...it's all on delay and an embargo is made so that all info has to be approved by the top dogs before an of it is shown, it was not like that prior to 1992....that's a censorship if ever I saw one ....though why I am even telling you this is beyond me, since you won't bother to listen, anyhow. And with Brookings, NASA's and JPL's own Prime Directive, as well as NASA being of the military (read the charter if you don't believe me), and I trust the military as much as I have in government, and I quit voting 6 years ago. Besides, you're the guy who said if you were in charge, you'd prosecute guys like Van Daniken and others for distributing their work......so, taking any advise or 'wisdom' from your, my friend, is like having the authorities during the times of Galileo and Copernicus, or Spain's inquisition of "heretics". So, the catbox you posted is not a convincing proof. You see, the side I am on is not the only one who has to have proof, you do as well, and the catbox is not proof.


    you forget something that hardcore skeptics and debunkers alike always say:

    1: Oh, look, ANOTHER grainy, blurry image/video....FAKE!
    2: ~With a good video or image~ Gimme a break, this is too well done, it's all clean and looks waaay to good to be real.....FAKE!

    You'll need to be specific to what evidence will be enough to change your decision, since many skeptics and debunkers say they want proof but never say exactly what. It's a two way game.

    So, I could post reams of notes, findings.....I could be standing in the middle of time square, butt naked, with 2 real live aliens next to me and all that, but those folks won't believe anything unless suddenly Obama or some other authority figure (ironic we keep calling the, liars, except for this area....a bit odd, I think) comes on TV and says, "My fellow Americans, we are not alone"
     
  20. Admiral Buzzkill

    Admiral Buzzkill Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm on the "side" of facts, not woo-woo conspiracy fantasies and superstition.

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    There's no face on Mars. Fact.