Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Kirsten Beyer, Jun 30, 2011.
I wish Kirsten luck, she may need it.
I hope she didn't get scared away...
Oh Kestral has facts but he ignores the whole point of the statement and concentrates on what he believes will get him the most mileage twisting what I said just a little. I am talking about characters from the Television and Movies as they have been translated by Trek Lit. The appearance is very sexist. Ezri isn't in the position to give orders to any of the male Main characters that come from the television series or the Movies.
He also pretty much made my point when he pointed out we are looking at a fourteen year time frame, plus the years tacked onto the end by Trek Literature.
And to the rest of you, Kirsten Beyer is going to be at the convention, she will host a panel on "Bring Back Janeway." In fact she is trying to arrange a way for those of us that cannot be there, to actually take part via the internet.
If she hasn't after all this time, I think we're okay.
At least I hope so.
Sort of related, but I went to a "Chicks Love Comics" panel at a local sci-fi con this past weekend and we actually had a pretty interesting discussion about fridging female characters and why some authors do it. I wish I could remember everything, because it was pretty relevant to this discussion.
At any rate, I have a different view of fridging than I did before. One of the panelists pointed out that to a straight white male fellow (her words, not mine, by-the-by; I harbor no dislike for straight white male fellows), killing/maiming a female character would be the worst thing he could think of to do to hurt the protagonist and build a little angst on short notice. She also mentioned it's also just a product of lazy writing because it's an easy-to-use trope.
They also mentioned that there's a lot of stuff that gets called fridging that isn't. I think Janeway's death could be a fridging, but I don't think it fits the definition closely enough on another look. She's too well-developed to just be the dead love interest and nothing else. Maybe if someone just picked up FC and wasn't familiar with the rest of the universe... but during the show, I'd say they fridged other characters for Janeway herself several times. "Endgame" comes to mind. Chakotay/Seven/Tuvok bit it just so Janeway could have some suitable angst.
Either way, fridging or not, I'mma still going to whine since there's only a few ladies in sci-fi I really think are done exceptionally well, and I lost one in a lousy story, dammit. But I appreciated the different look at the trope.
My comic reading list also became stupidly long.
^^I think we had a thread on that last year. That was my first exposure to the term.
Yup, we did! Interesting discussion, too!
I think I agreed with the premise of that thread last year, too, but my views have sort of evolved, thanks to that panel!
I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth and not assume the worst of me. I could certainly accuse you of "concentrat[in] on what he believes will get [her] the most mileage..." but that wouldn't get us anywhere and would simply be insulting.
But hey, what's good for the gander is good for the goose. I am not exclusively talking about characters from the TV and Movies, because we're not talking about TV and Movies, we're talking about the shared universe(s) that Pocket's created. I think limiting the discussion only to characters that were credited as "main characters" on the TV series is massively unfair and short-sighted because there's oodles of characters that never appeared on the shows.
At this point, there are characters that are unique to the literature that have been given more depth and characterization than some characters from the TV shows. There are at least 3 book series (New Frontier, Vanguard, SCE), two of which are ongoing, that consist primarily of minor or one-off characters from the TV show with a heavy mix of Lit-original characters. Another, Titan, features two stars from Next Generation and one from Voyager, but all the rest are Lit-original.
Facts are what we have to work with, and the facts don't support your allegations of sexism unless you intentionally restrict the discussion in your favor.
Doesn't matter. None of them are on her ship. But let's look again at what happened in Destiny in her actions with Picard and Riker, shall we? Here she is, newly minted Captain, won her captaincy by battlefield promotion, and decorum indicates she should always defer to Captain Picard, the Captain of the flagship of the fleet. But does she? No, she doesn't.
I did no such thing, and you must've misread what I was saying. My fourteen year time frame referred to the novel-only series New Frontier, which has had 22 novels published, plus an anthology, a few short stories, and some comics.
Lest we all forget, Trek Lit is the ONLY place that we can see new and recurring characters. When certain fan groups refuse to purchase and or support Trek Lit because they do not contain ONE character, then they add to the decline of new Trek fiction.
This is circular reasoning, isn't it? I mean, which comes first? Is Trek fiction declining because the current direction being taken, or is it declining because readers are unhappy and not buying the books?
The point is that one can have new characters and keep the recurring ones, too. It isn't an all or nothing proposition. And, there can be more than one story line, if they wish, sort of a "myriads" universe future. The editors can do what they want with this, and I humbly believe that they should do what it takes to sell more books. That's what feeds the proverbial bulldog.
^ You're aware of course this is already being done? In at least two of the multiple Star Trek Universes (Shatnerverse and Star Trek: Online-verse) Janeway did not die.
^^I looked through the Star Trek: Online book and, while I realize that she's still alive in it, I had the dickens of a time finding her. She's alive, but we aren't hearing about her much.
Well, most novels are set in the Prime continuity, that's a given. But who knows, they may well go back to that 'verse.
There's also the Myriad Universes collections and the surely aforementioned "Places of Exile." It's unlikely to be followed up on specifically, but the concept is limitless by its nature. I've no idea if there's plans to do Myriad Universes stories, but I really really hope they do. So the mechanic you're suggesting does exist.
I wish they would, too, but I'm not holding my breath. Out of three anthologies (nine stories/novelettes), only one was Voyager, and I thought it was mediocre, at best, just another "oops, we're going to have to settle somewhere" story that has been done better countless times in fanfic. Plus, I thought the Janeway was pretty much the Pocket Book stereotype--arrogant, controlling, cold, distant. If they write more, I hope someone writes it who can capture the more complex Janeway that I saw on the screen (and I think Beyer could easily do it).
Why do you feel so threatened by Janeway that you would want to deny her fans of her return?
There are a great number of Voyager fans out there & they like Voyager the way that it was. Non Voyager fans should quit expecting Voyager to be completely re-worked so that it is to their liking. If you don't like it go read the other Star Trek novel like you threatened to do & leave the rest of us to enjoy Voyager in peace.
Well we certainly won't miss you. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
OH GOOD someone else disliked 'Places of Exile." To be honest, I really liked the idea behind it - as far as "oh no, let's settle on a planet" stories go, it was cool. I'm a sucker for city ships.
But, like you said, KJ was OOC something fierce and like 50% of the story was just complaining about the series. Felt like reading a TBBS thread. I think KJ was only in there to be the shopping bag for Chakotay's baby - 'cause man, she was written badly, like a big jerk. If I can't even enjoy the J/C, something's wrong!
I'm okay with the alternate universe-type books and STO, actually. I just hope they eventually knock out a good VOY story. I can wait nicely. Beyer, Jarman, and Golden have all written pretty cool KJs, IMO.
In the book she commands the USS Tucker on Starfleet's annual survey of the Hobus Nebula, and gives us a nice technobabble-rich account of how STXI's impossible supernova was impossible. 30 years later, Starfleet still don't have a clue what happened.
You know... I'm actually a moderate fan of Voyager, owning four of seven seasons on DVD and viewed the Equinox two-parter via Netflix last night. I rank Janeway above Sisko and Archer and just behind Picard in the hierarchy of Trek captains. One more than one occasion I noted to my wife the similarities I saw between Janeway and Jim Kirk (my favorite by a mile Trek character).
I found that Janeway, like Kirk, died "making a difference". Her sacrifice saved millions and I honestly can't think of a better way for a heroic character to go out. I think the "Shatnerverse" did a disservice to the character of Kirk, making a mockery of his sacrifice. I feel the same would be true with a magic reset button on Janeway's demise.
While I like Janeway, the series is Star Trek: Voyager not Star Trek: Janeway. To bring back Janeway now would simply roll-back the work of Kirsten Beyer to make the cardboard background characters of the series into living breathing people and return us to the status quo of the TV series. No thanks.
I've been glib towards the "Bring Back Janeway" crowd because of the pure fact they just cannot act the way they act and have a firm grasp of reality. I actually saw one poster accuse Pocket books and Peter David of "murdering their dreams". I've seen others accuse Pocket of being anti-female without seeming to grasp the fact that the editor and the person in charge (from Paramount) of "green-lighting" the novel in which Janeway died were both women.
For me, Star Trek: Voyager ended with The Farther Shore. Voyager like a series like Gilligan's Island had a definite shelf-life. Once the goal was achieved there was no real reason for them to stay together. I give the highest praise to Kirsten Beyer for proving me wrong. But I can guarantee that I would not have enjoyed those novels if Janeway had continued to be the eight-hundred pound gorilla in the room. YMMV.
Look, there are people out there shouting so loud the rest of us aren't even being heard. By "crowd" you actually mean a few people out of a whole hell of a lot more. Beyer never responds to anyone except the people making the most fuss and the back-and-forth quote wars hide any other discussion.
Do you guys just skim 80% of posts in threads like this or something so that you can keep this weird idea of a bunch of frothy-mouthed fangirls alive in your heads?
There's a lot of KJ fans who can and do read the newer books, some who don't, and others who would love to see the character back but don't really get involved in the melee. I know that shatters the precious illusion we're all morons, but there you have it.
The ones who scream loudest and the most often usually drown out the more "down-to-earth" people. Just look at the Tea Party. Perhaps the more "down-to-earth" BBJ people need to renounce the more radical elements to be taken seriously.
Froot is quite right. There are plenty of us who love Janeway and do hate that she's dead. Many of us are satisfied to simply voice our displeasure when given a chance and let it go at that. It's hard for the majority of us to get involved in discussions like this at all, however, because many of us cross circles on other boards and tensions always get too high with certain individuals to make it worth saying a word.
Separate names with a comma.