Amok Time repercussions?

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by SignGuyHPW, Oct 11, 2013.

  1. SignGuyHPW

    SignGuyHPW Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Something always bothered me about Amok Time. Kirk and McCoy openly disrespect an ancient Vulcan tradition and decieve one of the most respected leaders on their world. Obviously, the Vulcans figured out that Kirk's death was a sham and McCoy had lied to them. Was there not any type of repercussions over this? I'd think that Star Fleet would be livid over the blatant disregard for the safety of fellow officers by Spock not to mention the three of them were in collusion to defraud some of the most influential Vulcans. Plus, I'd think that the Vulcans would be highly upset that their sacred traditons were mocked like this.
     
  2. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Someone brought up this very same objection a few weeks ago as I recall.

    Pretty much says it all right there. The Vulcans don't have any room to complain.
     
  3. Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

    Happy Xmas (War Is Over) Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    Not sure the Vulcans want their "dirty laundry" aired, so they aren't going press charges. As for Starfleet, T'Pau seems to wield some power in UFP political circles. Enough to keep Starfleet off Spock's back. Vulcans aren't going to get upset, it would ruin their carefully constructed persona.
     
  4. SignGuyHPW

    SignGuyHPW Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    I *think* that she was meaning that the laws and customs weren't binding before he accepted the challenge. Once he accepted then he was bound to follow them. Otherwise, he would've been able to go with his original plan and let Spock beat him up a bit and then just quit.
     
  5. A beaker full of death

    A beaker full of death Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think the scandal of T'Pring choosing the combat far outweighed any issues the Vulcans might have had with what Kirk and McCoy did. After all, the Vulcans rather expect that sort of thing from humans.
     
  6. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, I think they would have found McCoy's solution to save the Captain "most logical" and grudgingly let it go.
     
  7. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What happens on Vulcan, stays on Vulcan.
     
  8. Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

    Happy Xmas (War Is Over) Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    Yeah, they were willing to give T'Pring's shenanigans a pass.
     
  9. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Even if Spock had killed Kirk I don't know if they could legally charge Spock.
    Kirk shouldn't have accepted a challenge-to-the-death.
     
  10. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    Kirk wasn't even told it was a fight to death until after he accepted. So the Vulcans, including T'Pau, actually tricked him into accepting.
     
  11. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Ignorance of the law is no excuse.;)

    Presumably a Starship Captain, a representative of the Federation should know this.

    Look at it from T'Pau's point of view. She must have wondered why Kirk would have accepted the challenge. Surely he didn't fancy T'Pring. So did he want to die or just kill Spock or maybe show off in front of T'Pau?
    Maybe she just wanted to teach Kirk some sort of lesson by refusing Spock's request to deny Kirk''s acceptance of challenge.

    So what is the law anyway?
    Vulcan elder on Vulcan requires Spock and Kirk to fight to the death. She gives Kirk the option of backing out. Spock requests that Kirk backs out. Kirk again refuses. So Spock has to agree to obey the law of his home planet.
    Legally is Spock guilty?
    I think in TNG Picard says to someone the law of Federation overrides local law but that was on a Starship. I don't know what happens if a Starfleet officer is on a Federation planet. Does local law override Federation law? In 'Wolf in the Fold' it seemed to but that wasn't a Federation planet.

    I know its not that simple, Kirk didn't know that it was a fight to the death and Spock couldn't control himself.
     
  12. Dale Sams

    Dale Sams Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Fortunatly at that time (See The Menagerie, and Kirk's PD violations) Starfleet and Vulcan apparently are headed by compassionate "Ok ok...we get it" people.

    Which is why the last two Star Trek movies are funny in averting that trope in regards to Kirk.
     
  13. Ríu ríu chíu

    Ríu ríu chíu Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because Kirk didn't want to dishonor Vulcan customs by turning down a challenge? Besides, if he declined, T'Pring would simply have chosen someone else.
     
  14. Nebusj

    Nebusj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Heck, even if nobody mentions it to Starship Captains in their training they really ought to figure it out quick enough: alien ritual combats are always to the death. It must come as a shock when they find one that's just five rounds of three minutes boxing each and if either person bleeds that ends the match.
     
  15. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    So he's suppose to know the local laws and customs of hundreds of Federation worlds? I think that is a little much to expect of anyone.
     
  16. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral Admiral

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    It's also apparently the first time either Kirk or McCoy have set foot on Vulcan, and not even Spock warned them of the details of the ceremony before beaming down.
     
  17. Happy Xmas (War Is Over)

    Happy Xmas (War Is Over) Fleet Admiral Premium Member

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    STONN: Hello, I'm standing right here!!!!!
     
  18. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I actually agree with this.

    But if I was T'Pau I might think that Vulcan was special enough to warrant understanding of its customs. That Kirk (a Starfleet representative) wasn't going to come down and tell them how they should do things on Vulcan - stamp all over their customs and traditions.

    Same if Kirk was on Andoria? I would expect him to be somewhat familiar with Andorian protocols. Kirk wants to play with the big boys - T'Pau's not going to let him back out when things get tough (and hes already been given a chance).

    And Spock was in no state to explain the 1/1000000 chance of what might have gone wrong in his wedding. He was barely holding it together as it was. And if he had known, Kirk would have still insisted on going to make sure Spock was being treated OK - you know he would. Although of course not agree to fight to the death.
     
  19. The Old Building & Loan

    The Old Building & Loan Auld Lang Mod Moderator

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    ^Ummm...a major part of the story was that the Vulcans had been keeping these mating customs a closely-guarded secret. Kirk and McCoy spent half the episode just figuring out what was going on with Spock, there was nothing on record about his condition. And T'Pau was scandalized that outworlders were present at the ceremony.

    Did you even watch the episode?
     
  20. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Did you ever watch TSFS where Admiral Morrow says I don't understand 'Vulcan mysticism' and refuses to help Spock or McCoy. Its no wonder with attitudes like that, that Vulcans keep secrets.

    And everyone knew about T'Pols imitation pon farr and Paris made sure everyone knew about Tuvoks pon farr. I know this came later but we are talking about an in-Star Trek explanation.

    We all know that Kirk had no idea that it was going to be a fight to the death but T'Pau didn't know that and probably didn't care. It was clear that they were guests of Spock and were supposed to behave like Vulcans would in their situation. Otherwise from her point of view they should have left. Kirk had a chance to bail out and he refused. Was T'Pau supposed to give him another couple of chances? This is the tough way Vulcans live. Kirk was treated as if he were a Vulcan. Just as Stonn would be if T'Pring had selected him as her champion instead. Kirk is supposed to be a Starfleet Ambassador not some back-packing tourist.

    Its like me visiting another country and expecting them to conform to my customs and bend over backwards to cater for me. Should I be allowed to drink and take drugs in a country where alcohol is illegal because I'm a westerner and I didn't know?

    In this episode the Vulcans did nothing wrong. Unless they're not allowed to have their own local laws. Kirk did nothing wrong. McCoy lied but hey he's human. And it looks like T'Pau forgave everyone by getting them off the hook with Starfleet.