After Romulus

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by jhouston6, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. rfmcdpei

    rfmcdpei Captain Captain

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    QUOTE=RPJOB;7513921]But why would you WANT to do something that's already been done? Wouldn't it be more interesting to see differing outcomes? Don't let other interpretations of the movie events tie you down. Surely there must be more than one way (or two or twenty) that things could progress.[/QUOTE]

    One problem with that is that the near-extinction of the Romulan subset of the Vulcanoid population would require going against the canon established in the novelverse, which has stated that Romulans live in very large numbers away from the Romulan homeworld. Coming up with a way to exterminate this populations would be only somewhat less problematic than deciding to jettison the novelverse canon.

     
  2. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Sure, but that doesn't mean this particular one is desirable or remotely plausible. The number of ad hoc rationalizations and logical convolutions you'd have to pile on top of each other to justify it makes it very unappealing, and I don't see anything to be gained by doing it. Kill every last Romulan? What the hell is the point? What do you do next? Certainly it's far more interesting to show the surviving elements of Romulan civilization coping with the loss of their homeworld.


    That doesn't wash. Most Trek "aliens" are blatantly humanlike in their psychology. They're allegories for facets of human behavior or for human cultures. In 46-plus years, the Romulans have never been shown to behave in a way that would seem arbitrary or incomprehensible to humans. They've been used as analogues for Earth cultures from Ancient Rome to the USSR, maybe with a bit of North Korea thrown in given their bouts of isolationism. They have consistently been portrayed as an interstellar empire, a power using military force to conquer, control, and expand their territory. The notion that they would all be living on their home planet is simply not consistent with that. What you're proposing is to ignore everything we've ever learned about the Romulans and arbitrarily impose a whole new interpretation of them in order to justify a story choice that has no evident benefit or purpose.


    So? That novel isn't canonical. Enterprise showed us a Vulcan civilization with a large and active interstellar presence. That canonical evidence supersedes a decades-old novel, no matter how well-loved the novel is.
     
  3. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    As for Romulan expansionism, the whole point behind their Enterprise storyline was that Earth and her allies were a threat to their expanding empire. If their empire was that big, then there would have to be a whole lot of Romulans off planet in order to keep their territory under their control.
     
  4. rfmcdpei

    rfmcdpei Captain Captain

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    I'm not sure that novel even means what the original poster thinks it does. Spock's World is a Duaneverse novel belonging to the Rihannsu continuity. In the first novel of that continuity, My Enemy, My Ally, Ael reflects on the traditional Romulan attitude towards Vulcan and current-day Vulcan civilization: "The meek, after all, had inherited Vulcan; the Rihannsu had gone out and conquered the stars." Even there, there's evidence for a fairly significant cultural divergence.

    (There also might not be such a contradiction between the depiction of Vulcan as isolationist in Spock's World and the depiction in Enterprise of a Vulcan with a substantial presence in space. How many Vulcans need to go into space, after all? An apparently prosperous and technologically advanced 22nd century Vulcan that was a status quo power presumably wouldn't need to commit very large amounts of labour to its project.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013
  5. rfmcdpei

    rfmcdpei Captain Captain

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    In the recent Romulan War novels, it was established that the interstellar civilization of the 22nd century Romulans was not only substantially older than the humans' but larger in the bargain. The only reason Earth lasted so long on its own was that the Haakonans were distracting the Romulans on the other side of their empire.
     
  6. RPJOB

    RPJOB Commander Red Shirt

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    Nonsense. See my earlier comment about Romulus being the British Empire and suddenly having the British Isles disappear. How much of an Empire would be left? The percentage of British citizens, as opposed to colonials such as India, was a minuscule fraction.

    There would still be British bases, primarily naval ports and there would be some civilians ling amongst the colonial population but you wouldn't have an Empire to run things any longer. How is that arbitrary or incomprehensible? There's no reason, however, to portray them as humans in silly foam appliances either.

    Essentially I see it as Romulus having orbital bases around planets with indigenous populations. Of course there would be a few on the surface at any time but they'd much prefer to be up above, looking doen on the natives. On wholly Romulan colonies it would essentially be country homes for the high ranking members of the government and military. A very small population, all Romulan. Why let some alien sully your worlds? We didn't see any aliens on Romulus. Where are the other members of the Empire? How about, there aren't any. They're basically slave labor and not allowed off their homeworlds or industrial planets like Remus.

    I've never said that ALL Romulans would be wiped out. A large part of their empire would be by the supernova. Why else would Spock feel the need to stop it AFTER Romulus had been destroyed? He said he didn't have much time. Time for what? Letting the blast go beyond the point of no return.

    In regards to Vulcan colonies this is what Memory Alpha has:

    Vulcan Colonies
    These colonies were established by the Vulcan High Command. Many of them are older than the Federation itself.
    Paan Mokar
    Vulcanis Lunar Colony

    It's missing P'Jem but it was a listening post disguised as a monastery, not a full on colony.

    The Vulcans wanted Paan Mokar for strategic reasons and to keep it out of Andorian control. Hardly a thriving colony world.

    Vulcanis Lunar Colony could be in the Vulcan home system for all we know, perhaps on T'Khut or it's moon as seen in the initial release of TMP.

    Vulcans don't seem to be the colonizing type either.
     
  7. rfmcdpei

    rfmcdpei Captain Captain

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    There wouldn't be millions of British subjects in India. There would be millions of people of British descent, recent emigrants and otherwise, in various parts of the empire: Canada, Australia, South Africa ...

    What do you think about the portrayal of Cardassians as a colonizing sort?

    What do you think about the novelverse's explicit establishment of your preferred version of Romulan colonization as a non-starter?
     
  8. RPJOB

    RPJOB Commander Red Shirt

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    So you're right. There weren't millions of British subjects in India. There were hundreds of millions of them. However, they were still citizens of India and not Britain. They were, however, subjects of the monarch. Now, imagine British = Romulan. Not British = not Romulan. If Britain sudden;y disappeared then Indians would no longer be British subjects because that country no longer existed. The British citizens in Didia would still be British but would have no Empire to back them up.

    I think that the novelverse isn't a huge, monolithic entity like some people think it is. There's a subset that has a shared continuity but even within that there's parts that contradict. There's also stand alone novels. If you had enforced your rules on everything fitting into a single continuity then we wouldn't have gotten Diane Duane's Rihannsu or Ford's The Final Reflection.
     
  9. Ronald Held

    Ronald Held Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Even if there are substantial numbers of Romulans alive, as a political entity the Empire may not exist assuch.
     
  10. Lee Son of Pete

    Lee Son of Pete Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I know it doesn't intrinsically imply anything, but I think it's worth remembering that the Roman Empire survived for hundreds of years after Rome fell. It's character changed and it developed*, but then every society changes over time doesn't it?





    *to the extent that modern historians refer to it as the Byzantine Empire in order to distinguish it from the classical Roman Empire. The 'Byzantines' themselves though considered themselves Romans, and their nation The Roman Empire.
     
  11. rfmcdpei

    rfmcdpei Captain Captain

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  12. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Right. The Roman Empire didn't fall when Rome fell; only the Western Roman Empire fell. For centuries before then, the empire had basicaly had two halves, a Western half with Latin as the official language, and an Eastern half with Greek as the official language (and which was in a lot of ways a continuation of the Hellenistic culture that preceded Roman rule there). The Eastern empire endured a millennium longer than the Western one (at least officially, though by the end there was little to it beyond Constantinople).
     
  13. Lee Son of Pete

    Lee Son of Pete Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    There were also plenty of spin-off nations that considered themselves Romans, such as the Sultanate of Rum, and even to an extent Romania. In fact the Catholic Church is arguably the Roman Empire, as most of the Western Roman nobility, when it became clear Rome was doomed, took up positions in the church.
     
  14. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    And then of course there's the Holy Roman Empire, which was neither holy, Roman, nor an empire.
     
  15. Lee Son of Pete

    Lee Son of Pete Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Haha, yeah, I didn't include them for essentially the three reasons you listed.
     
  16. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Now I'm getting verklempt.
     
  17. Freman

    Freman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You guys know too much stuff.
     
  18. RPJOB

    RPJOB Commander Red Shirt

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    I never knew that the entire heart of the Roman Empire disappeared in a matter of seconds. I'd swear that Rome still exists. You learn something new every day.

    Of course any analogy we come up with isn't going to be exact.
     
  19. Lee Son of Pete

    Lee Son of Pete Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    But Rome was not in the Roman Empire for the last 1000 years or so of it's existence, it was 'sacked' which means politically it was destroyed in a very short period of time, maybe not seconds, but allowing for poorer communications, it was politically the equivalent.

    The only conceivable way that Romulans are gone after the destruction of Romulus is if they all lived on Romulus, which as we have already established, is unlikely in the extreme, and, in the novel continuity, which is likely to be the only one where the question is ever addressed, already stated not to be the case.
     

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