After Romulus

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by jhouston6, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Paris is right. It's a fallacy to equate the planet Romulus with the Romulan people. Nero may have claimed he was "the last of the Romulan Empire," but that was surely the hyperbole of a grief-deranged man. I mean, it's a star empire. An interstellar civilization. Of course they didn't all live on the planet Romulus itself. Just because Romulus is gone, that doesn't mean there's no more Romulan civilization.

    Heck, we even have canonical precedent for species that have lost their homeworlds but still exist, from the Platonians and Fabrini to the Suliban and Xindi.
     
  2. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    The Romulan Empire has been shown to be so centralized that offing a single room full of people was all it took for Shinzon to take over in Nemesis, and of course the aftermath of that was the RSE/IRS schism that lasted a couple of years. I'd say it's a possibility that the Romulan Empire will fall or splinter after it gets supernova'd. But of course, we shall see...
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Well, it wasn't a room full of just anyone. It was the Praetor and most of the Senate. And just because the movie doesn't show it, it likely took months or years for Shinzon to gain enough backing from the Romulan military to be able to claim power.
     
  4. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Sure, the political entity called the Romulan Star Empire could fall, but that's not remotely the same thing as assuming that Romulans as a race would physically cease to exist. Especially in the novel continuity, we know that Romulans live and thrive on many planets other than Romulus itself. Even if the government is replaced, the civilization will still exist. And Spock's work toward unification, far from being rendered irrelevant, will become more important than ever, because the surviving Romulan people will need all the support they can get.
     
  5. flandry84

    flandry84 Captain Captain

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    /\Exactly,after all the Thallonians continue to exist as a cohesive racial group.

    Too bad the writers chose to destroy Romulus though,the Romulans have always been my favourite "threat"race and just now what with all this Typhon pact mallarkey,they have never been as interesting.
     
  6. RPJOB

    RPJOB Commander Red Shirt

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    Going strictly by what we've seen in the shows Romulus has had very few colonies mentioned. I imagine that Romulus is seen as being the promised land due to it being the world chosen by their ancestors. It's possible that most of the other inhabited planets have a small Romulan presence, mostly military overseers using the indigenous population as slave labor.

    Also, the Hobus supernova wouldn't have destroyed just Romulus but everything in between as well as in other directions. It's an expanding sphere. Spock may have used the red matter to stop it from entering Federation space. The rest of the RSE may be essentially depopulated.
     
  7. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    All that considered, I'm sure there are still other Romulans around, including a colony world or two. Certainly the days of the Romulans being one of the quadrant's biggest political entities are over, but the Romulan species is still around, even if there are very few left.
     
  8. Markonian

    Markonian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Think of Star Trek Online. The game and its Path to 2409 and The Needs of the Many tie-ins deal extensively with the Post-Romulus era.

    Here, several colonies vie for becoming the next capital. Taris becomes praetor, the captial Roma Nova is built on Rator III. When Sela becomes Empress in 2408, the Empire is finally politically stabilised.

    That is, until she is abducted by the Iconians in 2409. The political order falls apart again, the Tal Shiar attempts to exterminate the Reman species (which is still part of the RSE in the STO continuity). The Reman rebellion, led by Obisek and based in The Vault (cf. ST: Nero) ally with the Romulan Reunification Movement led by D'tan.

    Together, they settle a new planet called New Romulus in the Azure sector, intent on changing the deceitful ways of the Romulan people. They are on good terms with the UFP and the Klingon Empire but harassed by the Tal Shiar and the Tholian Assembly.

    The end of Romulus is not the end of the Romulans. Either they become crazed fanatics (like Nero) or join forces with their Vulcan siblings. After all, it's about time the UFP swallows another major former enemy for optimism's sake. :bolian:
     
  9. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Both interpretations are possible, but of course we're not talking about some universe that actually exists and we're just learning about in pieces; we're talking about something that's entirely made up. So whether there are few Romulans left or many is solely a function of what the writers want to establish about it, and the writers can select the facts to fit the version they want. So we can't really argue that either scenario is certain. It could go either way just as easily.

    But since we're unlikely to see any more canonical depictions of the Prime universe post-2387, that leaves it up to the tie-ins to determine how things go. And my point is that there's nothing to prevent Pocket or IDW from establishing that the Romulan people still endure after Hobus. Indeed, as Markonian just pointed out, Star Trek Online has already done so -- in their continuity, the supernova threw the empire into turmoil and triggered civil war and political strife for quite some time thereafter, but the RSE still exists in 2409 as a major galactic power and there are still plenty of Romulans around. I see no reason why the novels wouldn't take a similar route, especially since that would be in keeping with how the novels have already depicted the RSE to date. The scenario of a post-Hobus reality where the Romulan culture is extinct just doesn't seem like something we're ever likely to see in any professionally created work.
     
  10. Lee Son of Pete

    Lee Son of Pete Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    It's a while since I watched the film, but don't we see it in a flashback, ie, we're seeing what the character is describing, complete with their interpretation of events?

    I was working on the principle that Nero is clearly insane and thus not a reliable witness. If he's the only source Spok had, he could've misinformed Spok.

    I agree it's a stretch, and what's more, would be a fairly dissatisfying storyline unless done incredibly well. I'm just saying I can see it as at least plausible.

    Should Spok be bound by the Temporal Prime Directive to try to restore the original timeline?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  11. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Which is incorrect. First off, Nero was not the only person aboard his ship. Presumably his entire crew witnessed the event. Second, as I explained, Spock was evidently aware of the planet's destruction before Nero confronted him, so either he detected it directly or was notified by someone other than Nero.


    The original timeline hasn't been erased or altered. This timeline exists alongside it in parallel. So there's no need to "restore" anything. Besides, he has no way of getting back. It wouldn't be an option even if it were needed, which it isn't.
     
  12. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    Its Spock. :techman:
     
  13. Lee Son of Pete

    Lee Son of Pete Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    :) I think I shall, from now on, employ that as a stock answer for any awkward question.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Admiral Admiral

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    :lol:
     
  15. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    As I recall, it's part of Spock's mind meld with Kirk, which I intrepret as Spock essentially giving memories over to Kirk. If the destruction of Romulus is in Spock's memories, Spock must have seen it.

    And besides, as mentioned above, Nero went absolutely apeshit about how he saw the destruction of Romulus. If we're to believe his character arc that he was a simple hardworking miner turned psychopath due to the destruction of his home, I would hope he's 100% certain his home is gone before he turned into a psychopath and that he's not murdering people and destroying planets just because someone told him Romulus was gone and he didn't bother to verify it. Nero's already one of Trek's worse villains, this would just ruin him completely.
     
  16. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    The whole point of Nero was that he wasn't some evil psychopath -- he was just a blue-collar working stiff to start with, but he suffered an unbearable tragedy, was filled with vengeful rage, and happened to come into possession of the means to act on it on a massive scale. Simmer for 25 years in a hellish Klingon prison camp, with his drive for vengeance the only thing that gives him a will to live, and you get someone even more bitter and vengeful as a result. The idea that he was just some random lunatic who imagined the disaster, aside from being inconsistent with the facts, is a profound misreading of the character.
     
  17. rfmcdpei

    rfmcdpei Captain Captain

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    It's possible, but it's not likely.

    * The Romulans seem to be as expansionistic a culture as any other. To assume that Romulans didn't colonize new territories when they became available would be to have them behave in a way that no human imperialist power has ever behaved. The novelverse has further established that there are multiple sizable Romulan colonies, the Praetor herself being from one (Glintara). Romulan colonies may plausibly not have been mentioned in the various series because non-Romulans didn't have access to the Romulan colonies; the Romulans are, after all, isolationists.

    * It's very likely that the Romulans would take over inhabited worlds and establish themselves as ruling classes. That's what imperialist societies do. The novels even explicitly establish them as doing that with the Kevratans, while Terix II--a major Romulan world--also has its own indigenous population. The Romulans are almost certainly minorities on many worlds in their empire.

    Given these are planets with populations possibly amounting to the billions, this is still a sizable number. For comparison, in South Africa immediately after apartheid of the forty-odd million South Africans only five million were white. South African whites still are more numerous than, say, New Zealanders or Uruguayans, and they controlled a technologically and economically sophisticated state. Apartheid ended in South Africa as peacefully as it did only because whites were convinced to do so. I really don't see Romulans on these Romulan-minority worlds as being nicer.

    The novelverse draws upon Star Trek: Star Charts, which shows the Romulan Star Empire to be a pretty large ellipse of space that at points comes quite close to the Federation core, the novels further establishing the existence of large Romulan population on worlds fairly distant from Romulus--Achernar, Devoras, and Rator all come to mind. If the Hobus supernova really was so big as to annihilate all these Romulan worlds, then the Federation core worlds would also be destroyed.

    There's still going to be large numbers of Romulans around. Even if the Hobus supernova destroys some older Romulan colony worlds, the Romulans have spread out sufficiently that I can't see Romulan civilization as being doomed by the destruction of the homeworld.

    (Will the destruction of the Romulans encourage the survivors to consider new possibilities? Sure. They're just not going to be driven into extinction, that's all.)
     
  18. JD

    JD Admiral Admiral

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    If Romulans are really as powerful politically as we are repeated told in the different stories, then I would image they would have to have quite a few colonies out there with a lot of Romulans on them. Not to mention all of the Romulan ships that were probably out and about when the Hobus event happened. At this point I doubt they are in any danger as a species, but the Empire as a political entity is probably a different story. Since the supernova destroyed Romulus and it's star system, then that means the Empire has lost it's homeworld and the majority of it's political, and military leaders. So I have a feeling that whatever is left of the Empire as political and military entity is probably a lot weaker than what it was before.
     
  19. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Indeed, one of the main arguments in favor of human colonization of space in real life is that it's a hedge against extinction. A species that settles beyond its own planet is safe from planetary-scale catastrophe, and one that spreads far enough across interstellar space is immune from just about anything that could cause its extinction.

    Although it's true that Trek has nonetheless posited the existence of a substantial number of extinct starfaring races, some of whom have been implausibly claimed to have been rendered extinct simply by the destruction of their homeworlds, like the Tkon, the Iconians, and the builders of Mudd's androids. It seems to be a common failure of imagination among Trek writers to forget that an interstellar empire would not have all its population concentrated on a single planet. (See also the dialogue in TUC about the risk of Klingon extinction, and Spock's "endangered species" line from the 2009 movie -- same problem.) But other starfaring races were rendered extinct by more widespread warfare, like the Menthar and Promellians, or by changes in their own biology, like the Loque'eque from the ENT episode that was actually titled "Extinction." And many ancient races are just gone without explanation, so they could've evolved into incorporeal forms rather than just dying off.
     
  20. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You know that kind of makes Spock's the supernova threatened the galaxy thing more plausible seeing as taking out that much of the Federation and Romulan Empire probably would screw up a good chunk of the galaxy, especially if the Klingons decided to take advantage of the situation.
     

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