Admiral Cain in BSG - A Different Tact

Discussion in 'Battlestar Galactica & Caprica' started by starsailorjane, Apr 10, 2013.

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  1. Hey guys, I'm new. Was reading that thread in the BSG forum. Happened to pretty much agree with the OP. Apparently not many people did. Its been a few days so I thought I'd start up another thread taking a slightly different tact. Hopefully we can keep the discussion civil. Its up to all of us to try! I think the discussion was put into a better context toward the end of the thread. For rhetorical purposes as the author had said, lets setup the hypothetical that Cain's motive really was to win a guerrilla war and she had a chance to do so. The author did present compelling cases in the US history where the President crossed the line more than Cain did. His point on Lincoln and Sherman's March to the Sea was spot on and went unaddressed. Lincoln did consider the Confederacy to indivisibly be part of the Union, even when they were at war. He destroyed the food supplies and homes of his own citizens by his own standards to help win a war. How is this different from what Cain did in scavenging parts from civilian ships? Lincoln's action might seem more indirect and aseptic to some, but on the receiving end, the death and moral outrage is the same. A lot more deaths resulted from Lincoln's action's than Cain's. Furthermore, his point about the torture was spot on. Cheney and Obama have both used torture and rape on a lot more people than Cain. His point about using torture as a systematic and clinical tool was also accurate. Even if there is moral objection, he was strictly looking at in from an amoral perspective. To lob ad-hominem attacks at him was highly unproductive to the conversation. Some of you seemed to be okay with torture when it was a life or death circumstance without understanding that the nature of terrorism and war always presents a life or death threat. To Cain's harsh punishments, the author brought up the good point that even the Catholic Church (the promoters of moral absolutism) acknowledges the need to harsher penalties including the death penalty (which they usually consider immoral) when there's a need to keep stability. The alternative was shown on Galactica where you have the XO showing up drunk to work. So the point is, if Cain really were fighting a smart guerrilla war and had a chance to win, her tactics would really be no different than one's used by previous administrations in the US to win a war. Remember lets keep this civil:)
     
  2. Avon

    Avon Commodore Commodore

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    :wtf: shooting your XO stops him coming to work drunk?! your arguement is fail. :rommie:

    lets just run through this quickly, because your arguements are dumb, have been made before, discredited, then repeated over and over and over:

    -There was no smart guerilla war depicted onscreen. We saw an extended revenge fuelled suicide mission.

    -Just because Torture has been used by people in real life, it doesnt make torture an OK thing. and does not give a character utilising torture a free pass.

    -Just because Lincoln did something, it does not give Cain a free pass to do something else.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  3. Strawman! :) He probably wouldn't show up to work drunk in the first place with Cain. The benefit of harsher discipline is PREVENTION of bad behavior.
     
  4. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bfgrj_62-Y[/yt]
     
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Cain was a psycho-bitch and pretty much every action she took was morally/ethically wrong.

    Absolute power corrupts absolutely...
     
  6. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    I'll bet she could find a forum for this thread if she had to. Someone will talk sooner or later.
     
  7. Been lurking for a bit...weren't you one of the ones all for genocide with Section 31?
     
  8. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    Instead of tact, I suspect you meant tack.
     
  9. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    It's one of the less embarrassing things to do into the wind.
     
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Define "all for"?

    As a last resort to protect my way of life, I have no problem wiping out those who threaten it. Torturing someone for the hell of it when it provides little to no useful information, not so much.

    But I also have no problem taking survivors of a holocaust and going on the run when staying and fighting serves no useful purpose beyond petty revenge.
     
  11. Shawnster

    Shawnster Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Cain refused to acknowledge or cooperate with the government she claimed to serve. When the Pegasus found the Rag-Tag Fleet, Cain once again was under the authority of the President of the Colonies and the Admiral of the Fleet. Cain refused to accept this authority. Her actions proved to be the actions of a rogue military commander bent on a personal vendetta against the Cylons.
     
  12. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well actually she kind of was the Admiral of the Fleet at that point, that was the problem form the military stand point the nutcase outranked Adama so he kind of had to follow her orders for the most part.

    Which was probably the other reason besides having two Battlestars that Adama got promoted at the end of the arc just in case they ran into another insane admiral Adama could pull rank and cut that stuff off before it starts.

    Though you're right about the refusing to except the president's authority.
     
  13. Marc

    Marc Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    which under normal circumstances would have seen her relieved of command pending court martial.
     
  14. Rowan Sjet

    Rowan Sjet Commodore Commodore

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    Away!
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  15. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    :lol:

    Can't see any difference.
     
  16. Robert Maxwell

    Robert Maxwell Comfortably Numb Premium Member

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    Not to defend Cain, but I don't recall her usurping the President's authority any more than Adama did, i.e. sticking to the policy that military decisions rest with the military. Cain basically gave no shits about the civilians in the fleet, and wasn't around long enough to stage her own coup against Roslin. I suspect she would have, eventually, but at least what we got of her didn't show her outright refusing to do what the President told her.
     
  17. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's very true (from memory). I vaguely recall though that Forbes/Cain gave a priceless look when introduced to Roslin as president. Like "are you shitting me?".
     
  18. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Rated Awesome By 9 out of 10 Awesome Experts Moderator

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    To the OP and future duals of the OP. I'm glad Cain was killed. She's a monster and deserved to die like a monster. Torture is never justified, end of story.
     
  19. Lets be real here, it is implied Section 31 has tortured people (and are you honestly going to try to argue that they haven't). Cain killed a few people? Section 31 has shown entire planets of people are astropolitical pawns worthy of sacrifice as long as they see it as benefiting the Federation. To ardently defend section 31 as you have consistently (I've been a lurker for awhile) and then to condemn Cain's actions seems somewhat contradictory.

    And lets be fair to the OP he stipulates that for the purposes of a more constructive debate, we put Cain in the situation where she is fighting a guerrilla war she has a chance of winning.
     
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