About the KHAN scream.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Cara007, Nov 22, 2013.

  1. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm not sure you're right about all the slash writers. I tend to think a lot of fan writers are slashing everyone because its different, trendy, a bit naughty. I was amazed at the number of Chekov/Sulu pairings I saw after ST09 because I don't think they even spoke to each other in the whole movie.

    I tend to think differently about the old school K/S slashers. I've had some discussions with them. While they failed to totally 'convert' me I can see their point. If you study TOS closely I can see why some people can see the slash there. Kirk and Spock are very close. Shatner has a certain type of body language/smile that you could interpret as flirting with Spock. That scene in TMP where they're holding hands...

    I personally quite like Spock/Uhura. However, I just think it makes Spock a less interesting character. In TOS he was a lonely tormented, oppressed soul. In STID he's got a hot girl and everything's looking good for him (aside from the death of his mother and his entire planet I suppose;) ).
     
  2. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    According to you it's 80%.

    You really don't have a very high opinion of women do you.
     
  3. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ladies, ladies ... please. Let's not start taking this personally, now. It's all in good fun! How about THE KHAN SCREAM, eh? Personally, I never thought Khan had it in him to get both Kirk AND Spock to scream his name! That ... that's something ... I'd call that very "slashy."
     
  4. Cara007

    Cara007 Lieutenant

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    Trek was blessed to have Shatner and Pine playing Kirk. they rob off everyone and they seem to have chemistry with everyone. I love the pine/pegg, pine/quinto, pine/saldana, pine/urban scenes. Kirk/chris pine is like a sponge. he seems to have chemistry with everyone he talks to or even smiles at.

    What can I say about Shatner, he is a demigod. a lot of the time I always thought George Takei was just jealous of Shatner's charm. Shatner just had everything that every man dreamed of having, Shatner was very much like Kirk. So yes, I get the fantasy.

    My main issue with slash is how the female writers always demonize the female characters and write them as bitches and whores when those female are completely nothing like that in the cannon universe.

    Anyone remember when Angelina Jolie said she was in love with her brother. I think i was the only one who kept on saying in no way is she having sex with her own brother. whereas everyone was going crazy about the impending incestuous affair.

    Kirk and Spock have called each other friends and it is so much better that way. their friendship is beyond anything. no one can rival their friendship maybe minus frodo and sam. Girl fans are free to interpret it how they want in their own personal head but I find it sad that it comes at the expense of destroying the female characters they are romantically tied with or even settled with. There is a reason why a guy has his best man when he is marrying the girl. Its not about picking one. Its about having both.

    Now that been said,I think we need to get back to the topic of the Khan scream. This thread is quite good. I don't want it to get shut down because we went off from the main topic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  5. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    :rofl::rofl::rofl:
    Oh my, I just got that.

    You've tainted this thread for me if not all of Star Trek.:guffaw:

    Kkkkkkkkkkkkhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnn!
     
  6. borgboy

    borgboy Commodore Commodore

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    I have to add my two cents in before we completely move on.
    A lot of slash writers write slash because they like the dynamic of two men in love. There are some women who professionally write about gay men and relationships between men. Anne Rice's early novels included a lot of homoeroticism, especially her early vampire novels. She's talked in interviews about being fascinated by the relationships between men, how they relate to each other in a different way than a man and a woman. That's a legitimate dynamic to explore, and she also wrote hetero-erotic realtionships for those characters too. You don't have to hate women or be unhealthily attached to the characters to write or read gay/slash. Even when women write it, gay relationships in fiction aren't always some reflection on heterosexuality. It can actually be about those characters who are gay. The serious under representation of gays in media do inspire some people to bring inclusion and diversity into the stories they love, and yes, sometimes that involves reimagining those characters as gay, because they want to see the leads of the story as gay. This fills a void as outside of Torchwood I can't think of any mainstream sci fi with gay male leads. Lesbians get more representation in sci fi as they're less controversal to the hetero male patriarchy.
    A lot of people like slash because they like the dynamic between those two specific characters.
    Some people will impose their own biased and prejudices onto others, but not everyone has the same pov. A woman interested in gay men can still be pro-woman. Do a little research on women who write gay novels and see what they have to say about their work if you like, it can be really interesting. There's something extremely heterosexist and possibly homophobic to have such aggressive criticism of someone for writing about gay content.
    There are some writers who write female characters badly. The problem there is with bad writers and misogyny, not with slash as a specific genre. Many professional writers of published fiction do this too.
    As a gay man I am a fan of many hetero pairings. I am a big shipper for Picard/Beverly, Riker/Troi, Janeway/Chakotay among others. So why would it be so usual for a heterosexual to ship a same sex couple? I also will ship hetero non canon pairings like Bashir/Jadzia. I don't see how I'm "disrespecting" Worf any more than slash shippers are disrespecting anyone.
    Veering back on topic, yes, there is ridiculous amounts of flirting from Kirk to Spock. They have great chemistry, although I think more from the classic than the reboot. I had never thought much about Khan as having slash-ability with Kirk and Spock, but since it's been pointed out, I can see where somebody could do something with it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  7. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, as you like. Ham seems to me to be kind of a part of the package in any film or show involving Shatner, and I actually don't mind it if the characters involved are legitimately larger-than-life in some way and it makes sense in context. Maybe we're defining "ham" differently.

    No it isn't. Part of the package with Khan is supposed to be that his intelligence makes him dangerous. This is why you were criticizing his errors in judgment in TWOK as supposedly undermining him.

    What I'm saying is that for my money, STiD's attempt to sell us the "put people in torpedoes" plan (and everything that comes with it, including the subsequent 'sure, I'd love you to beam those explosive devices over to my ship, what could go wrong?' gambit) as the serious maneuvers of a master strategist is pretty laughable. (Some of his other actions are just inexplicably odd. I have yet to work out any answer to the "why does he go to Kronos?" question that makes sense, for instance.)

    Cumberbatch's performance sells a kind of Die Hard-villain kind of drive and is mostly likeable on that level. (It's only when you notice that his actions make no sense that it rather falls apart.) Now, if you have trouble believing that a villain capable of what TWOK Khan shows himself to be capable of in his introduction "feels dangerous," I think that for many that would be a hard sell... but TWOK Khan is most certainly something different because Montalban isn't selling a Terminator-style badass. His Khan is also a tragic character, and resonates far more for a lot of people for that reason.

    "My name... is... Khhhaann."

    "You should have let... meeee... sleeeeeep..."

    "After all... no ship should go down withouuuut heeerrr Caaaptain." Have to admit when I first heard this line I burst out laughing. In spirit it reminded me of nothing so much as the Emperor from Return of the Jedi.

    Moments like that were made funnier because they were largely at odds with the rest of his performance. (Granted, I actually thought the second one was kinda fun... maybe because I was enjoying the call-out to Blade Runner that the scene represented.)

    Being overconfident and/or rusty and/or not fully appreciating the level or type of the threat are all different from being "stupid" and all sufficient explanations of the scene, and developments of Kirk's character. As someone else said, I know some people don't like it that Kirk makes a mistake, but that does not make the scene "inexplicable."
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  8. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The only moment I liked Cumberbatch's performance was when he contacted Spock and demanded his crew. But that ended as soon he chewed that "cold corpses" line out.

    There are so many silly moments. Like when we see Cumberbatch the first time, the soundtrack goes all over the top dramatic. I started to chuckle at that.
     
  9. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I did think the sequence where NuKhan seems to trap Spock with logic was legitimately pretty badass.
     
  10. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    Good idea. :techman:

    Next, you'll want to work on thinking of that before you've climbed up on the soapbox to talk about your own personal peeves with other fans, slash, and so forth. In fact, I'd rather you left the subject of other fans alone altogether - that's for your blog, not for here. (Didn't we just do this in another thread?)
     
  11. Cara007

    Cara007 Lieutenant

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    Yeah,we did and I did not start again on the slash topic. I swear.

    It was another fan here that indirectly implied I was a slash fan and I simply corrected him.

    I agree as well back to the Khan scream.
     
  12. UFO

    UFO Captain Captain

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    Maybe I'm not 100% up on what constitutes "ham" but nuKhan's name thing definitely included a few slices of Montalban's "passion". The others you mentioned may have too.


    Sorry but I have to disagree with this. To me that scene was the most blatantly implausible thing in the movie. No, not "being chased down a rabbit hole where Spock Prime was hanging out" ridiculous, but really eye rolling none-the-less. Yes Kirk can make mistakes but quite apart from the numerous reasons Saito S already gave, Spock should have backed up Saavik instead of being dragged into the "stupid pit". At the very least, that would have been the time for Kirk to say: "No Spock, the Lieutenant has a point. Shields up".

    Additionally these guys knew that someone was blocking communications with the space station (and now they couldn't contact it al all) and then a ship shows up acting suspiciously! Come on, if the writers hadn't mentioned the existence of such a regulation they might have gotten away with it (ie. if no one had reminded Kirk!), but they oversold it so well there is just no excuse for Kirk's inaction.

    So to summarise, it is not rustiness, he was warned. Its not overconfidence, he seemed more bewildered than arrogant. And its not failing to appreciate the situation. Initially he may not have wanted to "offend" the other skipper. But, as Saito S noted, when the other ship raises it's shields for no apparent reason, Kirk had no option but to follow suit. That told him all he needed to know assuming everything else didn't. So that takes it beyond a "mistake" and into the realm of senility level incompetence.

    But regarding screaming in STiD, I counted three (did anyone notice any others?) This is a screamy movie! :)
     
  13. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wouldn't say so. Most importantly, the regulation quoted at Kirk is in-context most likely written to apply to non-Starfleet vessels. It would be very weird for Starfleet to have protocols in place requiring its own vessels to be preparing to go to guns on each other in any remotely suspect circumstance, as that would be a recipe for unnecessary disasters. (I hate resorting to speculation but this one seems reasonably sound to me.)

    Given this, acting as though it is totally inexcusable for him to be wary of applying this regulation -- and wary of leaping to conclusions about the situation in general, and generally unwilling to assume that a fellow Starfleet vessel would fire on him -- just doesn't make sense. Especially since we have seen Starfleet officers go the extra parsec to give each other the benefit of the doubt on the show previously, at considerable risk to their own vessels. That's why the Enterprise wasn't blown up during the disastrous wargame exercise depicted in... "The Ultimate Computer"? The one with Dyson and the M-5. (If anything is suspect in the scene it's that Khan, whose inexperience is later a plot point, seems to know and exploit this element of Starfleet psychology more surely than he should. "We are one big happy Fleet!")

    Combine that with the fact that the "coil emissions" and shield-raising business all happens in very rapid sequence... again it's obviously a bad mistake, but it isn't rising to the level of inexplicability Saito seems to be alleging. At least not for me. It really does seem to me to be a species of overconfidence; not in the sense that he's not puzzled by the situation, he is, but in that he's so used to ignoring regulations in favour of his own instincts that he doesn't even realize his instincts might not be as sharp as they were.

    (EDIT: I think Ryan Britt put it nicely:

    Basically a useful test is to translate a situation like this into a real-world analogue, especially in a Trek movie that's clearly based on a war movie setting. What level of suspiciousness would it take to get the skipper of an American nuclear submarine to conclude that one of his own vessels is a threat, plot a firing solution on it and flood his tubes in preparation to shoot it? Even in a situation of several suspicious-looking coincidences, at what point would he go to red alert and go to battle stations against one of his own vessels? I don't care what the circumstances are, crossing that Rubicon would be far from a simple decision. And in essence TWOK plays a parallel version of those kinds of uncertainties, and for once has Kirk choose wrong.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2013
  14. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think TWOk had the same - another example of fanboy service.

    And a break from canon - we all know Chekov is the TOS crew screamer.:lol:
     
  15. UFO

    UFO Captain Captain

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    Well the regulation is not about opening fire on other vessels, merely to show caution where warranted. And the circumstances at that point scream a need for caution for the numerous reasons already given. Moreover, general order 12 states: "On the approach of any vessel where communications have not been established …".


    If I was to speculate, I would guess that there were some hard won lessons that necessitated "non-Starfleet vessels" to be changed to "any vessel" in general order 12. ;) I don’t recall the exact circumstances of "The Ultimate Computer" but, as pointed out by Saito S, in this case there is simply no down-side to raising shields and every reason to do so given what is at risk. The example you give probably had a down-side/up-side balance to be considered (they usually do). But I agree with you about Khan’s conclusion being a question mark. Perhaps that’s a "standard" navy attitude in all services, or maybe he discovered Starfleet attitudes while reading on the Enterprise 15 years ago?

    There was enough time for Kirk to be warned, for Spock to over rule the warning and for Kirk to ignore it. Even with a mutated species of overconfidence, given the no down-side thing, yes its still almost inexplicable to me. I mean if you have seen those air crash docos there is often a "reason" for the weird things some people do but you still shake you head at them.

    Sorry, but your counter example above is what is known as a straw man. As pointed out, general order 12 does not require Kirk to blow anyone out of space. It is defensive precaution only. That being the case, I think Kirk would be incompetent to choose wrongly. I mean there is no anguished decision making needed here. It should have been the first thing he did, certainly after being reminded of the "general order". The requirements of the plot are one thing, but they made Kirk and Spock look worse than they had to in their effort to show Kirk as fallible, in my view.

    BTW, I wouldn’t characterise Kirk as an ass-hole his whole life just because he doesn’t believe in the no-win scenario. A little unrealistic maybe? :)

    Edit: I have been assuming general order 12 requires the raising of shields. But Memory Alpha suggests: "it is implied that the ship is supposed to go to yellow alert when faced with a non-communicative ship."

    Hmmm ... yellow alert didn't seem to do much good!
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2013
  16. Saito S

    Saito S Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: Cumberbatch vs Montalban. I think we're at loggerheads, honestly. :lol: I actually agree about "My name is Khan" in STID; I'd forgotten about that, but it was a bit much. And really, while I liked STID overall and enjoyed it more than TWOK, I still think that making Cumberbatch's character someone else (maybe a follower of Khan instead?) would really have been better and more interesting overall. Buuuut, that's not how they wanted it to go.

    And while we're on the subject of admitted flaws in STID: the first look at Khan, with the camera hiding him until the end of the conversation and then showing him with this serious look on his face and playing this REALLY dramatic, "oh look! LE VILLAIN!" music... that was just silly. Probably the most poorly executed scene in the whole damn film for my money. It was so completely over the top and unnecessary.

    As for the torpedo thing: I dunno, I didn't have a problem with either the idea of trying to smuggle his people on them in the first place (vs Marcus having complete control over their fate, which was Khan's only alternative from what I recall; this was literally the only way he could find to get them away from Marcus), nor having Spock beam them aboard. He had no reason to think that they had evacuated all of his people from them and rearmed the warheads. Spock outmaneuvered him there.

    Re: the shields - UFO pretty much says most of what I would have said to follow up on that. Raising the shields is as close as one can possibly get to a risk and consequence-free combat preparedness maneuver (and doesn't really have a direct equivalent in real-life military tactics and tech). And even if one buys Kirk knocking down Saavik when she tries to quote the reg, and Spock siding with Kirk instead of her on that, and even if we buy Kirk saying the situation is "damn peculiar" but still not raising shields - I think all of that is on shaky ground at best, but buying it for the sake of argument - going to yellow alert (which - according to the dialog and visuals immediately following Kirk giving the yellow alert order - apparently includes "energizing defense fields" and charging phasers!) but not raising shields, seeing the Reliant raise HERS but still not raising the shields... sorry, but I really can't get past that. It was as distracting a flub as just about any I've seen in any Trek ep or movie.

    Last thing I'll say on this point, since it's something that's been brought up a few times and I'd like to clarify it. I have no problem whatsoever with the idea of Kirk making a mistake, even a serious one, or with the idea of him being "old and rusty", which of course is a major theme of the film as has been pointed out as well. It's the execution of the Reliant approach scene/shield thing itself that bothers me. I suppose that it's really a microcosm of TWOK as a whole for me: I see what they were going for, and have no problem with what they were going for, the execution just didn't work.

    All of that said, as I mentioned at the top, I think we've reached the point where we are smashing opinions against one another regarding most of the above, and we're just going to go in circles if we keep discussing it. I'll shake hands and agree to disagree if you will. :)
     
  17. Belz...

    Belz... Commodore Commodore

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    I think because sensors can't see that far down into the rock. That's why on Regula I they couldn't see where they had beamed down. They needed coordinates. Khan couldn't just fire away the transporters, hoping to pick someone up.

    I also think Kirk's scream is genuine. He has a plan, but he's still pissed at Khan.
     
  18. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about taking the steps to prepare for active combat with one of your own ships. I'm really not trying to strawman anything; the above steps I describe are the real-world counterparts of things like "raising shields" or "red alert." What do you think it would take to get one American submarine to take those steps against another, no matter how peculiar the situation? Can you see why that would be a complicated decision? Even just psychologically?

    Mainly I would expect Kirk to have been thinking that whatever the peculiarity of the situation, the possibility of another Starfleet ship firing on him was so remote as to be absurd. Which is in fact what I would expect the commander of a warship approaching a fellow warship to think, in most remotely psychologically realistic settings. So I suppose that explanation just seems like the most natural fit to me. I suppose we could count seconds from this or that indications that something is wrong and award Kirk a coresponding number of Alzheimer's Medals if you're really determined to, but I can't say I'm buying it.

    That's your prerogative. Procedurally I kinda sort of see where you're coming from, it's just that the plot point is about psychology and that's where we seem to differ. (I have always admittedly found the "defense fields" thing a bit confusing -- shouldn't yellow alert automatically raise the shields? What's the difference between shields and "defense fields"?) On timing, the immediate preamble to Khan's attack is basically supposed to be extremely rapid, so I've really never found myself stopwatching Kirk's response time to the Reliant's actions once that begins.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013
  19. UFO

    UFO Captain Captain

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    As Saito S pointed out there is no analogue to raising shieds in present warships (I thought about mentioning that, but was just too damned lazy! ;)), so your example breaks down at that point. To make that clearer: What commander would fail to termporility double their ship's armour in a suspicious situation if they could do so at the flick of a switch? None I'm guessing. There is no Rubicon being crossed as there would be with preparing for offensive action in current day terms. So I can't see the problem. But even it there is any residual psychological resistance, that presumably is precisely why GO 12 exists. :)

    To be fair I can't remember if that scene stood out like finding Spock on the ice planet in ST09, or not. Certainly not as badly I'm guessing, but I still think it is the worst such moment in TWOK, and I tend to over look a lot of that stuff unless someone draws my attention to it.
     
  20. BigJake

    BigJake Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It really doesn't. Flooding the tubes of a ship preparatory for launch is basically a detectible defensive measure that the other sub can hear. You actually don't have to plot a firing solution or have any intent to fire, it can quite easily be just a readiness measure... Not unlike "shields" in the ST universe*. There are no perfect analogies obviously, but the analogy needn't be exact for the psychological point to come across.

    And I take it it's coming across, yes? It would in fact be really spectacularly unlikely for an American sub commander to assume even in a peculiar situation that one of his own ships is the enemy and to prepare accordingly, right?

    (* If real-world sub commanders could double their armor at the push of a button, you can bet that with that more perfect parallel, that too would be read by other ships as an indicator of intention to do battle. The thing about defensive measures is that they're also potentially offensive measures.)

    I'm not talking about "residual psychological resistance." I'm talking about its being a basic pyschological component of your average navy -- and Starfleet is essentially a Space Navy -- to have an extremely strong inhibition against firing on your own ships or assuming they will fire on you.