About the KHAN scream.

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Cara007, Nov 22, 2013.

  1. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    He didn't find out until presented with the strapping lad himself.

    Our Kirk has never been married. If JJ changes that I swear I'll..
     
  2. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You'll ... you'll what, teacake? Clarify, for us ... specify! Personally, I'm fine with the idea. Just don't let Kirk marry some large-breasted green alien with scales and nostrils on her forehead ...
     
  3. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I will write a letter.

    Hey such actions gave us TOS Season 3, don't mock.
     
  4. Cara007

    Cara007 Lieutenant

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    Kirk can have sleep with lots of women but he cant commit to one. I get why most fans say he is married to the enterprise.
     
  5. borgboy

    borgboy Commodore Commodore

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    Classic Kirk did marry that woman Miramme or something when he had amnesia. She convieniently died by the end of the episode of course.
     
  6. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    People do realize the reason Shatner's "Khan!" scream is remembered is because most people think it's funny. Seriously, how much mileage have comedians and sitcoms gotten out of it in the last thirty years?

    Most people don't consider it some dramatic moment that rivals the best other movies have to offer. It's remembered because Shatner is a ham and the scream was right up his alley.
     
  7. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Admiral Admiral

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    Yup, he just screams for no reason, script, plot or otherwise.
     
  8. Franklin

    Franklin Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The entire sequence of events leading up to the scream is the most puzzling scene in the movie. Khan could've just beamed Kirk up to the Reliant. He finally has Kirk cornered, and killing him isn't important, any more?

    It may have been unfortunate that at the moment of Kirk's death, Spock sparks reminders to the audience of one of the most hammy moments in any Trek movie. But at least this time it had context, meaning, and real emotion. In story, it worked.
     
  9. Sindatur

    Sindatur The Grey Owl Wizard Premium Member

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    Exactly. If you go back to before STiD premiered, you can find post after post making fun of how cheezy and ridiculous (and embarrassing) Shatner's Khan scream was. It was a trope, whenever someone wanted to look silly (or have a reaction to indicate someone else's post was ridiculous), they would post a Youtube video of Shatner's Khan scream

    It wasn't until after the movie premiered that all of a sudden Shatner's Khan scream was considered sacred ground and Dramatic Theatrical Excellence.
     
  10. Ryan8bit

    Ryan8bit Commodore Commodore

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    It's strange that the writers tried to take something so cheesy and make it serious. I think that's why it was a little bit jarring for me.
     
  11. Psion

    Psion Commodore Commodore

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    This. It would have been much better than Quinto parodying Shatner. It would have served to contrast the two characters over two movies and three decades. I can see Kirk sacrificing himself to save the ship -- Hell, he probably thought he'd survive just by being Kirk. But when is Spock going to be ... Spock?
     
  12. Crazy Eddie

    Crazy Eddie Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It worked for me, mainly because they used it to setup the even louder scream of the Vengeance plummeting out of the sky and barely missing Enterprise. My only complaint, actually, is that they should have blended them better; Quinto's "Khan" scream would be gradually drowned out by the rising sound of Vengeance's descent echoing through the hull.

    The Spock we're seeing here is almost ten years younger than the TOS Spock. If you remember, he was a pretty animated fellow in The Cage.
     
  13. Keeper

    Keeper Commodore Commodore

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    I'm of two minds on the subject of the original Kirk scream. On the one hand, years of reviewing the scene has left me a little cold, it's easy to see why people think that it's funny or pointless but, on the other, when I think back how the scene made me feel at first viewings I find it was and is still well conceived.

    Kirk is reacting to Khan figuring out his plan, not taking Kirk's bait; "...if you're going to kill us you're going to have to COME DOWN HERE!" Khan then responds with "I've done more than kill you, I've hurt you, and I plan to go on - hurting you. I'll leave you as you left me, etc..." Then Kirk screams and we witness Khan having his emotional orgasm over the echos of Kirks scream. Khan won, at least for the moment.

    Regarding nuSpocks scream, I liked it just fine the first time. The narrative flowed smoothly into it so I didn't feel jarred at all. I wasn't so happy with it the second time, though. Which imo demonstrates the importance of the First Viewing Experience. It worked the first time as intended so I will forever credit it a successful scene just as I do with TWoK.
     
  14. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Emotionally, I think it is a good scene. But it really doesn't make any sense. Why would Khan have to come down to Regula to kill them? Why couldn't he beam the survivors up just like he beamed up the Genesis Device?
     
  15. Keeper

    Keeper Commodore Commodore

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    Dammit, how dare you bring logic to the discussion. lol

    My response is that Kirk was simply engaging, distracting Khan, buying time for the Enterprise to finish her repairs. As for his over the top delivery of the 'line', Kirk knew he had to make Khan believe his distress was real, which, as witnessed, he did.
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Which is a great explanation. :techman:

    My problem comes from the folks that act like Shatner's scream was some type of cinematic triumph that should honored with religious fervor or those who complain about having to do mental gymnastics to make Spock's work in their heads when we had to do mental gymnastics for the first one to make sense in the context of the story.

    Spock has always been shown to have issues when trying to handle emotional duress. Before the Pon Farr had even gotten remotely bad he was threatening to break McCoy's neck in "Amok Time".
     
  17. Cinema Geekly

    Cinema Geekly Commander Red Shirt

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    Firstly I loved it!

    The first time I saw WOK I liked that Kirk scene (still do) but as BillJ has pointed out, it can easily be broken apart and logically the whole scene doesn't make sense. And while I enjoy the scene I can still poke fun at it, and it is obvious that it has become one of if not THE biggest thing in Trek to parody.

    That's part of the reason I like the NuScream so much.

    That. Took. Balls.

    To take something so made fun of, pair with another familiar scene from the same movie and play it dead serious?

    I already knew it was coming as I read a ton of spoiler-y nerd rage filled complaints about it in advanced and I couldn't wait to see how good/terrible it would be in the context of the film.

    It doesn't give me chills now, but the first time I saw it? CHILLS! Put yourself in the story, remember what Spock has gone through since childhood, to say nothing of the huge chunk of the first film and in story; they emotionally earned that.

    You can of course argue the merits of using it in the first place, and ultimately I'd love to know what the exact mindset was, but either knowingly or unknowingly they did a gutsy thing with that scene.
     
  18. UFO

    UFO Captain Captain

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    It never fails to amaze me each and every time someone (who knows a thing or two about Trek) uses that non-example of Spock to support their point of view. In universe it makes no sense for a young spock who has been conditioned by Vulcun emotion suppression techniques to have it all undone and more by 3-4 years at Starfleet Accademy! No wonder his father was so upset at him going there! It is probably known throughout the galaxy as a character destroying den of iniquity. Then, ten years latter, after having a change of heart, mental breakdown, really bad mind meld, too much acid etc, he decides to become the completely different character we see in (most of) TOS. Can't we just accept that the pilots didn't get Spock right?

    Also, that it doesn't always make sense to view everything we see on screen as canon. My understanding is that it would never have been aired if they weren't behind schedule. If they chose to leave that bit it in, it was probably because they needed the playing time. Or they just never realised how it would be abused by fans. :p

    The other problem is that nuSpock is nothing like that false TOS Spock anyway. NuSpock is played as a "normal Spock" who "loses it" at convenient theatrical plot points, thus "ruining" the character (Did I write that out loud? ;)). He has became a human with pointy ears who usually takes himself way too seriously and compensates by letting off steam occasionally. False Spock is a much more bubbly extroverted individual. Seems to me, that if people came to realise that, they would stop making these unfortunate comparisons. Or not.

    Then it must be great to have no problems in this regard because I can't see why it would need to worry you, even if there actually are people who "... act like Shatner's scream was some type of cinematic triumph ...". Anyhow, maybe it was, it its own way. :lol:

    Moreover "the context of the story" isn't the problem with Spock's scream in STiD. The problem is that 1) Spock is doing it (You know, the Spock from The Cage, no that's not right either) and 2) it has been done before in rather similar circumstances, in a much more iconic way, that makes this version seem like crass imitation instead of paying homage or the latest easter egg hunt. Irrespective of anything else it is an ultimate "remember this?" moment. How can it not plonk you right back in your theatre seat (unless you know nothing about TWOK)?
     
  19. Keeper

    Keeper Commodore Commodore

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    Well, revisiting and subsequently rethinking and talking about that subject here has given me a renewed sense of awe of the WoK scene, but I probably should not comment on what's going on, or not, in the heads of some folks. ;)

    But you are correct, nuSpock really isn't THAT emotionally different from his prime counterpart of around the same times. People seemed to have forgotten we once had a 7000 post thread on how Quintos Spock should be constantly shouting! :cool: They fricken nailed it!

    :techman: @ Cinema Geekly.
     
  20. Amasov

    Amasov Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This.

    The audience I saw it with groaned at those exact same moments. Wonder if we were at the same showing.

    When discussing it with a buddy, I said I just couldn't take the scream seriously -- mostly because we have seen it parodied time and time again over the years -- which is why I think they did it in the first place, here.

    [yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3xopNvnyps[/yt]

    I saw Into Darkness three times in the theater and each time, I face-palmed when Spock yelled that out. What gets me most about it is Khan isn't directly responsible for Kirk's "death." Sure he attacked and disabled the Enterprise, which caused it to fall into Earth's gravity (???), forcing him to save the ship, but it's not as if Khan locked Kirk in there to let him die.

    I just want to ask some of the older folks who saw The Wrath of Khan in theaters in 1982. When Kirk originally screamed out Khan's name, were there laughs? Did you think it was funny? Campy?