A way Endgame could have been redeemed

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Control Voice, Jun 23, 2013.

  1. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    My dear, I must object. I thought this was the tired old (but with a point) song about 7 being emotionally crippled but it seems you are talking about actual age. What's the difference? Ten years? Fifteen? What does it matter?

    Harry is a sweet boy and though he may be closer in emotional maturity to 7 in a superficial sense 7 has seen all the horror and tragedy and desires of the universe and she cannot unsee it. She doesn't need a lamb, she needs someone who knows, if even a little, what she means by her overwhelming regrets.
     
  2. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    I've never bought that emotional age angle about Seven.
     
  3. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Though 7 may be a virgin and have none of her own experiences as an individual she is anything but an innocent. It's a great contrast and what makes her an incredible character.
     
  4. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    All the Trek series can be hopelessly provincial. In Voyager's case Seven could have been a wonderfully cooler addition had they explored what it was for her to be Borg, rarely did they embrace what the Doctor was capable of as a hologram. In both cases the characters were trying to be human rather than embrace what they were. It happens in all the series with Data, Odo, T'Pol, even Spock, they all have to learn to be like the humans. It's what made Farscape so much fun, the aliens got to stay alien.
     
  5. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I find 7's panicked "I am Borg" declarations to be very touching. Because dear 7, you are not. It's not like some vague bit of the old country you return to in your elder years, you're either plugged in or you're nothing. And I think we see that reality even as 7 refuses to.
     
  6. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    I didn't care for it. I saw it as something she was made to be in a maturation chamber. Removing that Borg tech should have been like removing body parts from a person. But the series didn't embrace the idea in that fashion, rather in the standard Trek form of what else could she want to be but human. Such a desire would have been more believable to me had she been a former Starfleet officer from that Borg attack at Wolf 359 (I think) than a child molded to be the Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix 001.
     
  7. Fruitcake

    Fruitcake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Doesn't it perhaps say that the Borg are less seductive in their claims to be agents in the search for perfection then what they actually are?

    Humanity (or Klingonity or Vulcanity..) is real. The Borg are just sock puppets. They don't know it, but unplug a person and their real species rears its beautiful head.

    (This is my in universe explanation, I agree with you about Star Trek and the Holy Altar of Human-ness)
     
  8. Gov Kodos

    Gov Kodos Admiral Admiral

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    More or less. For me, I'd have found more interest in Seven developing a medium between her individuality and being Borg along the lines of those Borg encountered in Unity. Endgame would have been better had they picked up on those Borg, and that Borg civil war Janeway launched in Unimatrix Zero culminating with Seven returning to the Borg to help restructure the Collective into individuals as she had learned to become.
     
  9. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Commander Red Shirt

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    Read somewhere a Braga's interview in which he has said that he wanted to kill Seven of Nine in the final episode (?)...
    It could have been a good idea. An ultime act of bravery from the former Borg she has been ... and for viewers , an ultime time where Janeway (the Admiral) and Seven would have had the opportunity of team up because when they work together, they were/are efficient even when they don't always respect rules of the game.

    A teaching could have been given pulled at the end of Endgame: try to modify the course of events and there will be unexpected repercussions. Always.
    Of course, Admiral Janeway had to know that her chances to go out alive of this temporal expedition, were inexistent but she was ready to face her own death. So, Adm. Janeway's fate had to remain unchanged (Captain Janeway could have sacrificed but well, the writers choosed her older counterpoint and as both Janeways can't die in the same time....) BUT, it would have been interesting that an important recurring character of the series (and to whom the viewers had become attached) disappears in the term of the finale. And Seven would have been the right choice though sad, I admit.
    Result: Voyager returned earlier on Earth but not without "damage" and the loss of a so important crew member would have consequence on Captain Janeway's future decision making.
    Capitain Janeway considers Admiral Janeway, not as her older counterpart but as very a cynical distinctive person even though she is similar but she doesn't show this side yet. It would have been nice to see that.

    A lot of fans would have shouted "Au sacril├Ęge" but at least there would have been a certain logic. Well, almost! ;)
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Seven was aware of her Borg life as a Human the whole time.

    We know this.

    What if the Borg pumped her full of the right drugs/chemicals to psychopharmacologically stop Seven's human observer Anika from going insane, fearing or enragifying? When I say what if, it's really the only explanation for how a perfectly well adjusted (cough!) individual peaked her head out of the collective after 20 years of captivity and suppression.

    No I don't think she high or catatonic, just compliant and accepting.
     
  11. suarezguy

    suarezguy Commodore Commodore

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    Seven dying in the finale would probably have made it feel overly busy and/or would make it even more unpopular, like with Enterprise's finale it would be considered cheap and forced.
     
  12. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Commander Red Shirt

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    Not inevitably. It would just have been necessary to cut/reduce scenes with Seven / Chakotay (frankly, I believe that it wouldn't have been lacking for many people! :whistle:) and those with Tom/Torres.
    And then, look at at the end, it was completely bungled (lack of time?, lack of imagination?).
     
  13. Galileo7

    Galileo7 Commodore Commodore

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    Agree, I wanted more after their arrival at Earth. Needed to see Janeway's promotion to Admiral and a year or so later for them all.
     
  14. Akiraprise

    Akiraprise Vice Admiral Moderator

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    I agree. A little celebration after 7 years with friends and family was in order I think.
     
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  15. Cate

    Cate Ensign Newbie

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    I would have preferred Captain Janeway to sacrifice herself for Voyager to get home, rather than Admiral Janeway coming back in time to play the hero. I didn't like the time travel element in End Game.

    It would be a much more powerful ending and would fit better imo.
     
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  16. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Vice Admiral Premium Member

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