A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor")

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Christopher, Dec 8, 2013.

  1. Emperor-Tiberius

    Emperor-Tiberius Commodore Commodore

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    Since you mentioned Caves, I think what made that one really powerful was the Fifth's last word being "Adric". It kinda summed up the entire incarnation, right there and then - a regret only 8 (via BF) and 10 would know about.
     
  2. Mister Fandango

    Mister Fandango Fleet Captain

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    I imagine finding and freeing Gallifrey would be more than enough cause to reward the Doctor with additional regenerations. (Not sure why that's not the obvious answer, since that's pretty much what the show is going to be focused on for a while.)
     
  3. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    It would have to be mortally wounded in an explosion. If a Time Lord is killed instantly, there'd be no time for regeneration to kick in. So it couldn't be too big an explosion.


    Well, isn't that just why it doesn't work? If the news reports are true, then the Doctor is currently on his last life, and will need to get a new regeneration cycle now, or rather two weeks from now. And the search for Gallifrey is most likely going to take a while to pay off, maybe drag on for years. It's not going to be resolved in "The Time of the Doctor." So unless Moffat's been lying to the newspapers and Smith is still just the 12th incarnation, then new regenerations are not going to be a reward for finding Gallifrey.

    And maybe the reason people aren't embracing it as the answer is that it's too obvious, too simple, not interesting enough.


    Getting back to the thread's original focus of listing/codifying the properties of past regenerations: A comment in another thread has gotten me wondering how many of the Doctor's prior regenerations were foreshadowed, how many he knew/expected were coming.

    1: The First Doctor was ill throughout "The Tenth Planet," so he may have suspected that he was nearing the end of his life. (This is largely because Hartnell himself was so ill and had to sit out much of the story.)

    2: The Second Doctor had no warning that the Time Lords would regenerate him (or "change his appearance"). Although it could be said that when he contacted the Time Lords for help, there was reason to expect it would have some consequences.

    3: The Third Doctor chose to confront the Spider Queen knowing full well that the radiation would be almost certainly fatal. He didn't expect to survive.

    4: The Fourth Doctor knew the end was coming because of his communication with the Watcher.

    5: The Fifth Doctor was aware that he was dying from spectrox toxaemia for at least half the story, although he was searching for a cure. At the end, he chose to give the only surviving dose of antidote to Peri, knowingly sacrificing his life (and unsure if he'd regenerate).

    6: No warning whatsoever -- just a sudden crash and Sylvester McCoy in a curly wig.

    7: The Seventh Doctor had no warning when he was shot, although he did try to warn Grace what would happen if she operated. Still, I'd say that overall he had no expectation that it was coming.

    8: The Eighth Doctor's end came rather suddenly, since it was a short minisode. But the Sisterhood of Karn revived him and gave him four minutes to come to terms with, and choose the form of, his impending regeneration.

    9: The War Doctor was not expecting to regenerate, although he realized he shouldn't have been surprised at his age.

    10: The Ninth Doctor chose to take the vortex energies inside him to save Rose. He knew he'd regenerate, but he only had a few moments to deal with the knowledge. So it was pretty sudden overall.

    11: Oh, just for the heck of it, let's count the Metacrisis: There was no warning before the Doctor was shot (well, grazed) by a Dalek.

    12: Oy, was there ever advance warning. A repeated prophecy made the Doctor very aware that his end was nigh, and he had plenty of time to get maudlin about it. Plus he lingered for quite some time.

    13: The Doctor's known for a while that he'd die in the Battle of Trenzalore, though he hasn't known when. I assume he'll have a fair amount of advance warning once he finds himself participating in that battle.

    So I'd say that only a few of the regenerations have been significantly foreshadowed. The majority have been sprung on the Doctor rather suddenly.
     
  4. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    We also know that Time Lords can be killed instantly by a Gallifreyan staser bolt as we saw in The Deadly Assassin, we also the Doctor's friend Runcible die of a knife to his back and Goth died of his injuries all before they could regenerate.
     
  5. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    Just because all our current information points one way doesn't mean we have all the information. Particularly in a show like Doctor Who and a writer like Steven Moffat, I'd be surprised if he felt beholden to have only one possible explanation if he thinks another is more interesting or exciting.

    What about my point about pocket universes?

    DOCTOR:
    I've got mail! (walks back to the console) Time Lord emergency messaging system. In an emergency, we'd wrap up thoughts in psychic containers and send them through time and space. Anyway, there's a Time Lord out there, and it's one of the good ones!

    RORY:
    You said there were no other Time Lords left.

    DOCTOR:
    There are no Time Lords left in the universe, but the universe isn't where we're going! (throws the box to AMY) See that snake? The mark of the Corsair. Fantastic bloke. He had that snake as a tattoo in every regeneration. Didn't feel like himself without the tattoo. Or herself, a couple of times. Ooh, she was a bad girl!


    If the Doctor could sense Time Lords in pocket universes, he wouldn't have been fooled by House. Likewise, there could be similar phenomena to explain the Doctor's inability to sense Galifrey frozen in time.
     
  6. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    There's nothing in that quote that says the Doctor can't sense Time Lords in a pocket univserse and there were no Time Lords to sense in the first place so it's no wonder he couldn't sense them.
     
  7. Sindatur

    Sindatur Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    But, he didn't know that, and he explained it as if he was explaining why he didn't sense the Time Lord he believed was "Out There". That implies he believed he wouldn't sense a Time Lord in the Pocket Universe.
     
  8. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    Well, it's implicit the quote when you consider everything else.

    The Doctor says if there were other Time Lords, he would sense them.
    He believed there were no more Time Lords because he could not sense them.
    The Doctor received the message leaving him to believe there was a Time Lord in a pocket universe.
    He thought this was a possibility even though he could not sense the Time Lord*
    Therefore, he could not sense Time Lords in pocket universes.

    * We know this both because he didn't think there were more previously and because there was no Time Lord to sense.

    The scene doesn't make sense unless there's a pocket universe exception to the rule. It's primarily the reason I (among others) had hoped that Romana had fled the Time War to E-Space, which could be outside of his ability to sense as well.

    If they address the Doctor sensing Time Lord things and explicitly adopt Christopher's idea specifically or my more general version of the same thing, would you believe that the Doctor can't sense Time Lords in other circumstances besides FOB watches?
     
  9. DWF

    DWF Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    Well the Curator is indeed a future Doctor as it's been suggested, finding Gallifrey is in his past from his(the Curator's) point of view. In any event I don't know why he need to sense them currently nor do I understand why he put them in a place he couldn't retrive them from.
     
  10. Emh

    Emh The Doctor Premium Member

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    The First Doctor would know that regret as well.
     
  11. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    Err, since they're all the same person, wouldn't every subsequent Doctor know about the same loss?
     
  12. ATimson

    ATimson Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    Old hat. Captain Jack got there first. ;)
     
  13. Mister Fandango

    Mister Fandango Fleet Captain

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    Erm, what?

    Capaldi will be his 13th and final incarnation (assuming nothing else wonky is going on which, honestly, should be thanks to River's donation/sacrifice which more than makes up for any energy he lost with the whole hand fiasco). Even after the reveal of the so-called War Doctor, Matt Smith wasn't his last incarnation. The only thing that's changed is that he has only one regeneration left now rather than two, thus making his quest to find Gallifrey a bit more imperative before he's killed as Capaldi, at least as far as my idea is concerned.

    Note that this doesn't have anything to do with the Doctor's belief that he's going to (permanently) die at Trenzalore. That's a whole other kettle of fish, and we already know that's not the case simply because the 13th -- which he was identified as in the actual show, by actual Time Lords and even the Doctor himself -- shows up to save Gallifrey. And as an audience, we already know that, too, simply by the fact that Capaldi has already been cast to play the part and that he does, in fact, regenerates into Capaldi during the Christmas special. So whatever these "news reports" are, they're talking out of their ass.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
  14. The Mirrorball Man

    The Mirrorball Man Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    ^Capaldi.
     
  15. Mister Fandango

    Mister Fandango Fleet Captain

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    D'oh, I knew that. Dunno why I had Garibaldi in my head.
     
  16. The Mirrorball Man

    The Mirrorball Man Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    :D Well, it had different implications depending on whether you were talking about Michael or Giuseppe Garibaldi.
     
  17. Iamnotspock

    Iamnotspock Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    Not so, apparently. What Christopher's referring to is Moffat's assertion that Smith is the 13th Doctor, owing to The Stolen Earth. River's donation/sacrifice had consequences for her - she used up her regenerations, she didn't transfer them.
     
  18. Tom

    Tom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    If Moffat wanted to do the 13th doctor idea and avoid the Metacrisis issue he could do a '2 minute' Doctor'. What I mean by that, is if the 11th was in a battle and regenerated to someone other than Capaldi. We get that 12th Doctor for a couple minutes then he gets injured again and regenerates to Capaldi. After all, Moffat did write 'Curse of the Fatal Death' (where something similar happened) and does like to re-uses his ideas! LOL Of course, he already played his 'unknown' Doctor card with the War Doctor.
     
  19. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    Yeah, but that's less interesting. Why not take advantage of the Meta-Crisis Doctor since we have him.
     
  20. Tom

    Tom Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

    11 regenerates into a Doctor played by Colin Baker that looks like an older version of the 6th doctor. His first words are "I'm Back!, now I can finally have all those adventures I missed out on! Fuck you Michael Grade!" then he trips over something in the Tardis and hits his head on the console and starts to regenerate, his lasts words are "Oh shit not again!" then we get Capaldi. LOL
     

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