A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    Not to mention that when Ned came back from the Tower of Joy, he didn't even know her that well. By the time of AGoT could he have trusted her with that secret? Absolutely. But when Jon was born, there was no way of knowing she could be trusted and then how do you break it to her years later, "BTW I've been lying to you for 14 years."

    It also keeps Cat safe if she genuinely doesn't know. Not bringing her in on it, which would be considered treason in Robert's eyes, would keep her safe if the truth ever was discovered. Just her knowing could endanger the whole situation as, though she may have tried to feign it, it would be hard to be as genuinely cold to Jon as she was before knowing the truth. If she changed how she acted, even in subtle ways, that could start to unravel the whole thing.

    So yeah, it was shitty to lie to Cat (and to Jon himself, of course), but even if Lyanna didn't specifically tell him to (which she may well might have), it was absolutely the right choice to never speak this truth aloud.
     
  2. Tom Hendricks

    Tom Hendricks You move! Premium Member

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    I thought that the Baratheon had Targaryen blood from a marriage. That was what Robert used to legitimize his claim to the throne. So you would have Stannis, Jon and Daney with the same blood, the blood of kings to create the triumvirate that is Azor Aha. They talk about the three headed dragon and everyone thinks it equates with the three dragons of Daney but what if its actually the three with Tagaryen blood.
     
  3. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm thinking it will be the dragon (Jon) has three heads (positions): the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, King in the North (via Robb's will) and maybe King on Iron Throne (without actually sitting on the Throne; heavily doubt he leaves the North alive before the series ends) or something else for the third.

    As to your, maybe all three will be AAR, well true, Stannis does have some Targ blood, but the Ghost of High Heart said the Prince That Was Promised will specifically come from the line of Rhaella and Aerys, which fits both Dany and Jon but not Stannis.
     
  4. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Didn't the Lannisters also have Targaryen/Valyrian blood? I thought that was why they had lighter hair than all the other noble families.
     
  5. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Then there's the Jaime/Cersei sibling-love thing which is a bit Targ too...
     
  6. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Yep - IIRC, there were several passages where Cersei thought that very thing to herself every time its morality came into doubt, to rationalize knocking boots with Jaime.
     
  7. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I've always liked that Jaime's sexualisation of, and romantic love for, Cersei is shown in a positive, somewhat beautiful light. I think I first started to re-evaluate Jaime when I saw how faithful and committed he was to Cersei.
     
  8. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Cersei compared their situation to the Targaryens. They aren't actually related to the Targaryens. The Lannister blonde look predates Valyrian arrival in Westeros.
     
  9. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The Lannister house's blondness comes from Lann the Clever.
     
  10. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It is actually possible that Jaime and Cersei and/or Tyrion are Targaryen bastards born of the Mad King and Joanna (their mother) through rape. Apparently Aerys had quite the fancy for her, and he was known for taking what he wanted. It helps to explain (beyond even him being a dwarf) why Tyrion gets so much bile from his father if he is either A. The bastard of the man who raped his wife, or B. His one and only trueborn child.

    It is a popular theory among those who want Tyrion to be one of the heads of the dragon.
     
  11. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    I thought this was total crackpot until I got to A Dance with Dragons and Barristan specifically discusses Aerys and Joanna and is stopped before he can go any further with the tale. Didn't convince me, but made me suspicious.

    Personally I hope it isn't true as too many "Actually, he's a Targ!" revelations in the final book could be redundant, but if it is true that Aerys and Joanna produced a bastard, I'd prefer it be Jaime/Cersei for the symmetry that both Tyrion and Jaime murdered their own fathers.
     
  12. Scout101

    Scout101 Admiral Admiral

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    yeah, makes more sense if Tyrion is the only legit son...
     
  13. sidious618

    sidious618 Admiral Admiral

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    If Tywin suspected it'd explain why he was always angry at his children.
     
  14. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think Tywin not being Tyrion's father would rid their story of all power.
     
  15. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's entirely possible that all three are Tywin's kids, and Aerys desiring Joanna was just another thing that led him to resent Tywin and soured their friendship.

    We know that prophecies can be averted in ASOIAF, like with Rhaego.

    Hell, for all we know Rhaego was the Prince that was Promised (which would match the "Stallion who will Mount the World" thing, it's the same prophecy) and the whole thing has been bunk ever since he was aborted.
     
  16. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Or the fates have backup plans upon backup plans. They may all be various incarnations of the prophecy, all equally valid and equally likely to carry it out. The 'throw it at the wall and see what sticks' strategy of divine intervention.
     
  17. Kosh Naranek

    Kosh Naranek Captain Captain

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    I dislike the (insert character name here) secret Targ threads. Aegon is already knocking about in the story and whether he really is Rhaegar's son or a Blackfyre - that is one Targ reveal already. (Because what are Blackfyres really but Targs with a different name?)

    I do believe that Jon is Rhaegar's son with Lyanna. I cannot think of anything else that Ned could have promised his dying sister that would haunt him like that. Ned always carefully refers to Jon as his blood - not his son.

    Violence towards children is a big no-no for Ned. 1. He quarrels violently with Robert over the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon. 2. He allows Cersei time to get Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella out of town. I think he would lie to protect his sister's son.

    Making any of Tywin's children Targs robs their story of most of its intensity. Reading about the Lannister's glorious dysfunction is one of the great things about ASOIAF. Tyrion is the most like Tywin, and they are both too blind to see it. Both are brilliant and ruthless.

    I know that a lot of fans say that Jon's rise to power was too easy, but it is not like the rise to power has made his life better and cushier. Some readers act like being Jon makes your life a bed of blue roses. But, the dude is freezing his backside off and surrounded by mutineers. Not to mention hordes of the undead are coming led by their otherworldly masters. Yeah, Jon's life is so sweet. :guffaw:
     
  18. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    ^^^ Good points - I think what most people are referring to is a kind of meta-knowledge towards Jon's existence based on what is known of his background, coupled by a series of semi-educated guesses.

    If he is the product of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and assuming he's destined for the Iron Throne, either to co-rule it with Dany or by himself, his is a de-facto charmed existence. Yes, he's going to go through hell to get to the other side, but he has a better-than-average chance of coming out the other side than most any other character in the entire series of books.

    That's what I mean by "having it easy" anyway. :)
     
  19. Kosh Naranek

    Kosh Naranek Captain Captain

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    I have always thought that finding out he was not Ned's would be a blow to Jon and not a boon. Plus, I think that Aemon's words to Jon were/are prophetic. Even if Jon rises to sit on a throne, he will derive little joy from it - much like his command of the Watch.

    Although a thread over at Westeros was pretty hilarious - I think it was called what if X character was Jonned. (They all ended up skipping through fields of daises, and that is not how I see Jon's story at all.)

    I cannot think that finding out he was another man's son would be anything but devastating for Jon. All of Ned's children loved him and he was a great father. Outside of his loyalty to the Watch, being Ned's son is Jon's driving force. What is important to him is being a Stark. I don't think finding out his is a Targ is going to be this great thing for him. Rather he will be saddled with a family he does not love and cares that he probably does not want.

    When he decides to out and out break his Watch vows, it because of Arya and the threat the Boltons pose. They are threats to the North - threats to the family that he loves.

    I also gag a little when it is assumed that Jon and Dany are made for each other. Hell there is little to suggest they would even like each other. She says one word about Ned and I could envision Jon tossing her off the Wall. They might become allies or even friends but I don't see them as this great love story. I may be wrong, but most people that were in it for love in ASOIAF ended badly. I would think that hoping Jon and Dany end up making doe eyes at each other would ensure their horrific death and destruction. :rommie:
     
  20. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    I've seen people suggest that, but that doesn't really make sense, because he wouldn't have been old enough to do anything during the Long Night, unless he was some kind of fast-aging baby.