A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. Tom Hendricks

    Tom Hendricks You move! Premium Member

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    What if Jon, Stannis and Daney were all Azor Ahai. They each have a little bit of him and have to come together to stand against the others...
     
  2. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Interesting idea - hadn't considered that before. I could see Jon and Daney being the two "halves" of that equation - Jon being "Ice" and Daney being "Fire" (in keeping with the almost Yin/Yang balance the books are inclined to follow), but think Stannis is just simply a man who derives his "right" from a temporary royal lineage, who just happened to be Robert Baratheon's brother - a usurper of his own kind. I'm pretty convinced he'll get swept aside in the next book, most likely from trying to retake Winterfell, removing him from the equation entirely and putting an end to Baratheon claims to the Throne for good (Joffrey and his siblings notwithstanding). As GRRM is never above wiping out relatively major characters, it is an extreme possibility in my book.

    I get the impression that the Targaryens were always supposed to be the rightful rulers of Westeros, their pedigree supposedly deriving from the noblest of Valyrian blood. It's only a matter of time before one of them steps up or, as you say, both Jon and Daney sharing rulership as king and queen, following in the Targaryen tradition of familial intermarriage.
     
  3. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I dunno, I'd be disappointed if the story simply ends up as the story of the restoration of house Targaryan. Dany means well and there have been good people in that clan (eg Aemon) but by and large they're a bunch of lunatics.
     
  4. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Doubtless a byproduct of the narrow interbreeding that the Targaryens seem to embrace as their birthright. Some jumbled chromosomes are inevitable with those kinds of milkshakes. I don't see either Dany or Jon as being nearly as batshit crazy like Viserys or daddy Mad King Aerys. Daney is extremely young and naive, and Jon is...well...Jon, but I don't get the impression that either of them could set fire to Kings Landing (or individual subjects on the main hall's floor of the Red Keep, for that matter) and think they would make a fine royal couple in the end. :)
     
  5. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    I dunno, I think Jon is AAR/TPTWP, but I don't think it'll be as simple and expected as him becoming King of Westeros. My guess is he'll die (after coming back, natch) not knowing his heritage or doing anything about it.
     
  6. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ oh yeah, I'd actually love to see Jon/Dany getting together! But I don't see GRRM going down that route. Then again, he might just surprise us.

    The problem I have with Jon embracing his Targ heritage is, who is there to prove it for him? IIRC, the only survivor of the confrontation we've been assuming to be the aftermath of his birth is Howlin Reed. I can't see the nobles of Westeros hailing Jon as king on the say-so of 'a frog-eater.'
     
  7. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    The funny that about this is that the craziest historical Targaryens have tended to emerge following periods of non-inbreeding. The "Mad King" had 50% fresh genetic material (though we aren't told who Jaehaerys II's queen was, just that he married for love). Likewise, there were a spate of sons and grandsons of Daeron II who had mental issues, but Daeron's wife was a Martell.
     
  8. Colonel Midnight

    Colonel Midnight Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I've always thought that the frozen corpses (corpsicles?) in the Wall might be another place that Jon's soul could "flee" to for a spell. Can't really see any other purpose for them at this point, since they didn't re-animate or do anything else on the Westeros side of the Wall before getting stuck on/in ice.

    Cheers,
    -CM-
     
  9. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    True - I'm not a geneticist, but I'm thinking that would imply that the "crazy gene" is recessive and only re-emerges precisely when new DNA is introduced. Perhaps if there are actual genetics specialists around they may be able to tell us if such things happen in the real world.
    Due to the inherently magical nature of the wall, being able to repel other magical things (like Coldhands not being able to go through it), that may not be possible. The wall itself might block Jon's attempt at warging, although it needs to be determined if that is in fact a magical endowment, or if it happens to be an actual natural physiological trait of humans in this world of a non-magical nature.
     
  10. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think the series will end with the iron throne being destroyed, the game of thrones finally finishing. I'd be disappointed if we got anything as simple as Jon or Dany on the throne after defeating the evil Others. ASOIAF is usually more complex than that.
     
  11. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know if we can look too closely to the Targ interbreeding for an explanation of anything. IIRC, Martin has admitted that genetics aren't his strongpoint. In this continuity, all Baratheons have black hair and all Targs have purple eyes and silvery hair; it's not really like real-world genetics apply.
     
  12. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    I could see the final scene showing two luminous beings, the Red God and the "Other (Blue?) God", sitting on opposite sides of a massive chess board, or possibly the intro scene "map machine", with one of them tipping over a small playing piece that resembles a miniature Iron Throne in the area of the map that resembles King's Landing, with the other looking smug, almost akin to the Greek gods playing games with humans on Mount Olympus.

    We're constantly seeing war maps and wooden pieces being pushed around in the show. May be just nifty prop work, or possibly some greater foreshadowing. Not really sure right now.
     
  13. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Have you been watching Lost lately? ;)
     
  14. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Heh...not in a while, but yeah...like that. :)
     
  15. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    May seem a pedantic point but not ALL Targs have purple eyes and silver hair. Princess Rhaenys took after her Dornish mother not Rhaegar in appearance and Baelor Breakspear in The Hedge Knight also doesn't look traditionally Targ (or traditionally Valyrian). A minor point but an important one given how many times I've heard "But how can Jon be a Targaryen if he's got brown hair?"
     
  16. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I finally finished my A Song of Ice and Fire re-read today with A Game of Thrones.

    One thing that struck me is that the first book is really fucking fast paced compared to the rest. Every chapter is important and moves the plot along, the prose is much simpler, more focused and functional, a huge chunk of the characters are together in the story so it has a simpler structure, and there's way less detail given on historical events/background characters. It's a much simpler novel than what followed, focusing on a very easy, digestible conflict between the Starks and the Lannisters.

    Think the book is a classic, but I'd say I prefer Martin's writing style in A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords and A Feast for Crows. In those books he gave much more detail, was slower, and concentrated more on atmosphere. I actually hate using numbers to score things, but I'm in a lazy mood today so I'd rate the series:

    A Game of Thrones - 9/10
    A Clash of Kings - 10/10
    A Storm of Swords - 10/10
    A Feast for Crows - 9/10
    A Dance with Dragons - 7.5/10

    Books 2 and 3 are arguably the best fantasy I've ever read, Book 4 improved HUGELY on a re-read, and ADWD was obviously several drafts away from completion.

    Love this series. Gonna check out George R.R. Martin's other novels next, and fantasy-wise I've started Joe Abercrombe's The Blade Itself.
     
  17. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    There's that, and there also appears to be a clue in the whole Baratheon/Lannister "The Seed is Strong" aspect, where any time a dark-haired individual is introduced into the mix, the blond gene seems to go dormant and the offspring always has dark hair. That was what both John Arryn and Ned Stark had discovered while researching the family lines.

    So, if Jon is, in fact, the offspring of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark (who was said to have had dark hair and resembled Arya) as many people think, Jon's dark hair is easily explained through that lineage.

    It makes me feel very sorry for Cat, always having to live with the false belief that Jon was Ned's bastard son, that tore her up inside for years. Ned should have told her - straight up. She would have taken the secret to her grave.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  18. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Not all, just some, otherwise the Targaryen look wouldn't have survived at all. Dany's direct ancestors include an Arryn (the first wife of Viserys I) and a Martell (Daeron II's wife), but they had blonde children.
     
  19. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Re Cat not being in on the parentage thing - I've always assumed that Lyanna made Ned swear to tell nobody, not a soul. Most men would have confided in their wives - espcially if the alternative was a likely cold shoulder for adultery - but Ned would have obeyed his oath to the letter.
     
  20. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    As far as I recall, the Targaryens were simply one of many highborn Valyrian families but lucked out in being the only one (the only one with Dragons at least) to survive The Doom.