A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Who is John Galt?
    You miss my point, and fuck your faux high-minded "defiance". I don't give a shit because both sides are WRONG in this.

    And, too late, you've already derailed the thread with this puerile political bullshit.

    All I care about (here) is GoT. Period.
     
  2. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^That's a constructive attitude. Go you.

    Not quite sure how posting 5 links about 'news stories' is consistent with only caring about GOT, but whatever...
     
  3. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think it's pretty unfair to expect his entire gameplan not to have changed since 1996, so I'm not gonna pissed at him for changing gears slightly. I do hope we get an adequate explanation though as it struck me as very strange seeing Varys act like that upon my re-read.

    I think it'll be left somewhat ambiguous, but I see the conflict of Ice and Fire that Melisandre sees as so relevant to the grand scheme of the series that it can't all be bullshit.
     
  4. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There has to be some explanation for resurrecting Dondarrion and Cat, for one thing, which at present only R'hllor offers. And the conflict of fire and ice, well, it's kinda in the title!
     
  5. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    Well, it's clearly not ALL bullshit because we have seen quite a bit of both ice magic and fire magic in the series, so we know that certainly there is power in both. What I see as bullshit is Melisandre's assertion that fire is "good" and ice is "bad," and things will be all right once the good guys (R'hllor followers) beat the bad guys (Others). I think the endgame will be considerably more morally complex than that if the rest of the series has taught me anything.

    If Jon truly is the Prince That Was Promised, I think the fact that he's equal parts Targaryen and Stark is a significant hint that one side is not morally superior to the other.

    There's certainly fire magic that can bring people back to life, but I see no evidence that there's a sentient being who actually cares about the affairs of humans behind it.

    Though I think the title holds more than one meaning (as GRRM titles often do), I think A Clash of Kings heavily hints that the primary meaning is that the "song of ice and fire" is the song or story of a person who has elements of both, which Rhaegar believed at the time to be Aegon but is probably Jon Snow.
     
  6. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Who is John Galt?
    Yeah, I'm definitely in the Jon Snow camp as well for that - the lost Targaryan (or perhaps Blackfyre?) at the Wall.
     
  7. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    He isn't a Blackfyre. Blackfyre was a specific Targaryen bastard who was legitimized and given the family sword. His legitimate brother inherited but was seen as weak and allowed Dornish influence into his court. Blackfyre though of himself as the only deserving heir of his father and eventually started a rebellion with one of his other bastard brothers. They lost, their sons ran to the Free Cities, plotted a return to Westeros, started a mercenary army, etc. but eventually all of the recognized heirs to the Blackfyre bloodline died.

    Which is to say: Jon isn't a Blackfyre in any way shape or form.

    He is a proper Targaryen, the legitimate or legitimized son of Prince Rhaegar and Lyanna. (probably)
     
  8. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    On the other hand, there's a quite convincing theory that Aegon, or the Aegon we meet in ADwD, may be Blackfyre. It's noted that only the "male line" of the Blackfyres died when Barristan slew the one with the infant head on his neck. Illyrio had a Valyrian-looking wife and there's hints Aegon is Illyrio's son (the child clothes Tyrion finds, the fact that Illyrio gets, strangely to Tyrion, upset when he learns he won't be able to see Aegon off), none of which point to Blackfyre specifically, except in conjunction with a story told in A Feast for Crows about a black dragon sign that is thrown down the river and later comes back washed up falsely looking red. Not necessarily the way it'll go down, but it's an interesting possibility.

    I'd say legitimate. If he wasn't, then Hightower and the other two members of the Kingsguard would've been with Viserys. They make it quite clear to Ned that they know both Aerys and Rhaegar are dead (meaning if Rhaegar had just said, "Guard Lyanna," those orders would become moot as soon as he died and Viserys became king). The fact that they're still there, still doing their duty as they go out of their way to point out, heavily implies Jon is legitimate (and why the series stresses that Targs practice polygamy).
     
  9. Dream

    Dream Admiral Admiral

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  10. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The series also shows that words like "Song" and "Dance" can refer to wars and battles as well. The "Dance with Dragons" wasn't about Dragons dancing, it was about a war between Targaryens.

    So "A Song of Ice and Fire" could also mean "War of Ice and Fire", the battle between the White Walkers and Humans (or whoever represents fire) and Rhaegar's talk about the Song of Ice and Fire is just a red herring.

    For it all to turn out to be a rather typical "Heroic Journey" storyline for Jon, in a series that's so good at subverting all this stuff would be kind of a lame ending.
     
  11. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Jon's story just hit critical mass with his last chapter. He is either dead and gone and was just part of the story to show us what was going on at the wall for these last 5 books until Stannis and Mel got there (unlikely). Or he will wake up from his 'ice-nap' as a very cranky messianic figure.
     
  12. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Most likely, he warged into Ghost or some other animal and Melisandre will use the "Breath of Life" thing Thoros could also do to revive his body. Since his soul wasn't in it when it was revived, he'll come back as 100% himself.
     
  13. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    100%? No. It will have changed him. I hazard to say we might've seen the last Jon PoV chapter.
     
  14. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Who is John Galt?
    Yes, just as Beric Dondarrion was slowly changed every time he was brought back, as many of his injuries never fully healed. I got the impression that it was to the point that he didn't really want to live any longer.
     
  15. Rowan Sjet

    Rowan Sjet Commodore Commodore

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    The theory goes that if Jon wargs into Ghost before he dies, and then wargs back into his body after its revived, he won't be damaged like Beric and Catelyn were by death.
     
  16. Captaindemotion

    Captaindemotion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Cat was dead for 3 days before being revived and Beric was reincarnated over and over again. Assuming that Mel does revive Jon, he won't have been 'dead' for as long, so presumably the loss of self will have been less in his case.
     
  17. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I hope it isn't as simple as people here are suggesting. Just having Melisandre revive him seems too cheap and easy.
     
  18. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Who is John Galt?
    Good point. IIRC, he was asking Orell a lot of questions about warging when he was spending time with the Wildlings. He might have learned a few things, although definitely doesn't seem quite as practiced at it as Bran had become.
     
  19. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Jon's story has been full of cheap easy things for him, so this would fit the pattern.
     
  20. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Who is John Galt?
    If Jon is the true Azor Ahai reborn (which I think Mel is starting to get that impression), it would stand to reason he would get preferential treatment from the author, as he will likely eventually become King of Westeros and, ergo, need to survive at all costs, including having a relatively easy time of it.
     

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