A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Nearing the end of ADWD. For all the huge flaws in pacing, structure and Essos worldbuilding, it builds to a pretty gripping climax. Definitely the weakest ASOIAF novel, but still better than 90% of fantasy out there.

    Hope we get Cersei's walk of shame in the show :drool:
     
  2. Tom Hendricks

    Tom Hendricks I like the Beats and the Shouting Premium Member

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    I just started A Dance With Dragons, so I look forward to catching up with you.
     
  3. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I hope you like Essos. A Feast For Crows was an adrenaline ride in comparison to the pacing in this book.

    I got kinda fed up with the idea of more Meereen so I decided to check out some of George R.R. Martins short stories. Sandkings is really damn good. Very creepy, and very funny. I checked out the TV adaptation expecting fun fluff but it had fuck-all to do with the short story and was incredibly dumb. Which is weird as the writer also wrote one of my favourite TNG episodes The Measure of a Man.
     
  4. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There was a deleted scene that showed Loras thinking it over and realizing that Brienne wouldn't have killed Renly, and that it was clearly something supernatural that killed Renly (he inspects the armor and sees that the kind of injury Renly died from was something a human in the room couldn't have given him).

    I felt more sympathy and humanity from him in that whole scene where he's with Robert at his last hunt than I ever did in the books.
     
  5. Klaus

    Klaus Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I loved that story when I read it way back when, especially as it's such a mirror-universe version of one of the best sf stories ever written imho, "Microcosmic God" by Theodore Sturgeon.

    I've thought of GRRM as "the guy who wrote 'Sandkings'" for years...
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2013
  6. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Grab Dreamsongs 1 and 2. While not everything is up there with A Song for Lya or Sandkings, there is plenty to make the occasional thuds worth reading through.
     
  7. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Great, he is pathetic. That misses the point of him entirely. Renly should have been the man we all wanted to be King. A stilled warrior, a charmer, all muscles and royal swagger. The picture of a fantasy king. Instead, by the time he confronts Stannis he just looks like a whiny kid and I couldn't wait for the shadow baby to do him in.
     
  8. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I actually think Renly was pretty well cast, but his character wasn't translated right to screen. I also hate how Stannis doesn't particularly care Renly is dead, whereas in the books he suffered horrible nightmares afterwards and regretted his decision.


    I plan on reading all of GRRM's work over the course of this year. I haven't been this obsessed with an author's work since I got hooked on Robert A Heinlein.
     
  9. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I didn't care for the casting of Robert or Renly myself, but Addy managed to pull off his character well enough at least.
     
  10. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    For all the many faults the show has, I think the majority of the casting decisions are superb. I hope we get the guy who played The Mountain in Season 1 for the Red Viper duel though, instead of the Season 2 guy. He didn't fit the role.
     
  11. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Conan Stevens was busy filming The Hobbit movies, so it is possible he will be back. He wasn't very memorable in his one or two scenes other than to strike me as considerably less imposing compared to Stevens and playing the part too. . . 'normal'. He could almost be retconned as a different character entirely if they didn't call him the Mountain.
     
  12. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The point of Renly in the books is that he was all flash and no substance. Everyone just saw him as this charming guy because they didn't bother looking past the surface, whereas folks who DID see him past the surface (and weren't in love with him) saw him as more inadequate. IE, a lot like Robert actually.

    TV Renly was more human and sympathetic, instead of just being Robert 2.0 (which made him kind of pointless).

    Stannis did feel bad over Renly in the show, we saw how after Davos left the tent he looked sad (for Stannis) and later on he was horrified when he finally admitted "I murdered my brother!".

    Compared to Book Stannis, who is mentioned having some bad dreams and some musings over a peach.
     
  13. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    What? In the books, Stannis was deeply traumatised over Renly's death. He couldn't sleep.
     
  14. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    Bad dreams and some musings over a peach?

    One of the most haunting character moments in the series and way more powerful than just explicitly saying, "I killed my brother! That is sad."
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2013
  15. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Renly was the embodiment of the "Knights of Summer," but he was also clever and handsome and charming and not unskilled as a knight. He was playing at being Robert 2.0 because that is what the people wanted. That fantasy of a King. He wouldn't have been a good king (at least not soon enough to be of any good) because he wasn't prepared for the hard decisions, but they threw that layered approach away and just made him 'sympathetic'.
     
  16. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That is some seriously brilliant writing. How anybody could write it off in favour of generic HBO shlock is beyond my comprehension.

    I suppose Loras and Renly's shaving scene was better written? :rolleyes:
     
  17. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, I guess I just never really saw it that way. I basically took Donal Noye's assessment of him to heart (Copper, flashy but worthless) and there really is no proof Renly was any good as a warrior.

    Granted, the show also made Stannis into this incredible warrior (which the books say nothing of).

    This is just Stannis evading his guilt, he refuses to accept he had anything to do with the Shadow monster and just excuses it as mere dreams he was having.

    For the life of me, I'll never get why folks hated the shaving scene so much. I suppose you hated that bit with Robert and Cersei as well where they both come off as 3-D humans in a loveless marriage laughing over the absurdity of it all?
     
  18. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Because instead of letting them develop as characters normally and then revealing that yes, they are also gay, they are instead just thrown at us with these very modern hollywood homosexual sensibilities. It emasculates them, makes Renly look weak and sulky and Loras look like a manipulative bitchy queen. Look at how they did Omar on The Wire almost a decade ago. There is no gay culture in Westeros, these men were raised amongst men, and masculine warriors at that. It is the only culture they know and they would reflect that culture no matter who they like to fuck. That is why the shaving scene is such bullshit, it redefined the characters with entirely different personalities and then placed them in their own little homosexual bubble.

    Omar, man.
     
  19. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I don't like it because it's a shallow attempt at cable TV titillation and edginess. The first season is absolutely full of exposition scenes set during a sex act.

    I'm a huge fan of Victarion Greyjoy and his weird red priest buddy Moqorro. Haven't been particularly enjoying the Meereen plot-arc chapters but Victarion's have been a joy. Hope he comes out on top in the next book, if there is a next book.
     
  20. CaptainCanada

    CaptainCanada Admiral Admiral

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    Renly was a capable tourney fighter in the books, we're told.