A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Out Of My Vulcan Mind, Apr 21, 2011.

  1. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wonder if the ratings drop since the last episode? :lol:
     
  2. Rowan Sjet

    Rowan Sjet Commodore Commodore

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    So yeah, some more small to big changes to the story this ep.

    - Stannis' redemptive decision to head to the Wall is the opposite of redemptive.
    - Jaime and Brienne arrive in King's Landing before the Purple Wedding, wonder how they're going to work around that? Just have Loras throw Brienne in the dungeons until after?
    - Bran never gets Sam to promise not to tell Jon where he's going.

    Anything else?
     
  3. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's been obvious since last year that the producers don't "get" Stannis, and somehow think it's more interesting if he's yet another ruthless schemer rather than a study in the ambiguities of having a rigid sense of right and wrong.

    Martin considered a lot of timelines for Jamie and Brienne's arrival in King's Landing. At one point they were to get there not only before the Purple Wedding but before the Red Wedding; you can still see evidence of that due to an error in the finished chapter, where Tywin and Jaime briefly talk about Catelyn as though she's still alive. I imagine it'll be easy enough to keep Brienne and Jaime occupied until after the wedding.

    I'm more surprised that they played out the whole Dragonstone story this year. Granted, there was no other way to give it a real conclusion, but now they have nothing to do next year until Stannis gets to the Wall, unless they invent a scene where he grinds an infant's bones to make his bread.
     
  4. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Stannis has been dumbed down for the TV viewers to the point where he's unrecognisable. A similar thing has happened to Tyrion in that he's way too nice in the show. I can't actually imagine him killing Shae in cold blood.
     
  5. Venardhi

    Venardhi Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not to mention that Shae herself is unrecognizable. All she has done all season is frown and grumble. Her betrayal doesn't seem at all surprising considering how little we've actually seen them together of late(and how little of that has been a positive interaction), and makes her turning down Varys free bag of diamonds look positively schizoid.
     
  6. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    As I look back at this season, it really sticks out how poorly the show has handled the overall scope of the story. Each plotline seemed to be occurring in isolation, with virtually no reaction to happenings in the others. Until this week, no one in King's Landing ever mentioned Robb's marriage, an event of enormous strategic significance; it was darn near impossible to tell the Lannisters were fighting a war at all, since all the writers could think to do with all the added screen time for those characters was drag out Tyrell/Lannister wrangling that has at least two more seasons to go. Meanwhile, the ironborn apparently sat on their hands all season, until it was time to remind the audience that they hold the North. Robb appears to have forgotten that too, since he made no mention of it, and instead of reclaiming his homeland planned for an attack on Casterly Rock(!). And, of course, Theon had to be isolated from everything else, so they could hold for the finale the underwhelming reveal that his captor is a character who means nothing much to the TV audience anyway. The show is often praised for managing such a large cast and story, but that's easy if all you have to do is divide it into several barely-connected chunks.
     
  7. Ayelbourne

    Ayelbourne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    On the show, Loras never suspected Brienne in the first place.
    So that little sideplot has already been dealt with.
     
  8. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I can't believe how much filler we've had this season at the expense of crucial character beats like Jaime's dream. So many pointless scenes going over the same stuff. Joffrey is getting married? Yeah, I fucking get it. Now can the plot move forward? Where the fuck even is Mace Tyrell? Well why introduce him when we can have pointless Theon torture sequences. Every week! Ones that aren't even half as interesting as the actual Reek plot in A Clash of Kings we should have had last season.

    The characters themselves are bafflingly adapted. Arya kills her first man a year too late, Stannis is COMPLETELY out of character to the point that I have no idea why Davos likes him, Mance Rayder is some bland growly cunt with none of the eccentricities of his book counterpart, and don't even get me fucking STARTED on the Tyrion and Sansa marriage.

    But the dumbass casual audience will still whoop and declare every episode as "Epic win!" if tits are shown.

    Season 1 was such an excellent adaptation. What happened? Still, I hope they at least get the Fake Arya/Jeyne Poole plot right as it's one of my favourite things in the series. Wait, they didn't include Jeyne in Season 1!? Fuuuuuuuck.

    I both love and hate this show. A damn shame it's now part of macho alpha-male culture.
     
  9. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

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    TBH I can't see how they can go with that arc- I can't see the TV Shae banging Tywin, or Tyrion killing her for it.

    On the upside, maybe we'll get lucky and they decide to keep Tywin in the show for longer, cos Charles Fucking Dance (yeah, that's his full name) is a god among men
     
  10. Lonemagpie

    Lonemagpie Writer Admiral

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    I don't mind most of the changes, because they're going to have to tell the story more chronologically than in the books - but their version of Daario Naharis is definitely one that bugs the shit out of me - where's our blue-haired pirate?
     
  11. DalekJim

    DalekJim Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm a Tolkien fanatic yet can still enjoy Jackson's movies so I'm not averse to changes in adaptatons. I love Return of the King and it completely skipped the houses of healing and the Scourine of the Shire, two of my favourite elements from Lord of the Rings.

    ...but not having Tyrion kill Shae and Tywin would be real cowardice from the showrunners. Charles Dance as Tywin is the biggest badass on television to be sure, but some things have to be kept sacred.

    At least they killed Ros this year. :bolian:
     
  12. JarodRussell

    JarodRussell Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I love the use of the word cowardice when they just stabbed a pregnant woman in the belly. I know what you mean, but it's still funny. ;)
     
  13. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    Pretty much all eccentricities and idiosyncrasies have been removed from the supporting characters and made into more generic archetypes who could be interchanged with one another. Sometimes, it doesn't really affect it that much, IE despite losing his leech fetish and creepy way of whispering, Roose Bolton has still been made into a merciless and cruel villain, while other times, it's a big fucking deal, IE fuckin' Mance and Tormund being interchangable as generic tough guys.

    Well, indeed, it does sound a little funny, but the cowardice is not in willingness to depict terrible actions; it's the willingness to depict characters they want the audience to like committing terrible actions. Black Walder stabbing a pregnant woman?? No problem, just adds to the audience's hatred and anger at the Freys.

    But since the beginning, Tyrion has consistently and constantly been whitewashed. When it started in S1 (removing him breaking Marillion's fingers, leaving out that he finished off with Tysha after Tywin's men did), they were minor details in a point in the narrative in which Tyrion IS pretty much "a good guy." But after the acclaim of Tyrion in S1, the character has had all negative qualities and actions (beyond very general, very lite "he drinks a bit too much and likes prostitutes, except he doesn't cause he has his hooker with a heart of gold") removed bit by bit to the extent that when it does come down to what happens at the end of ASoS, they're either going to have to change it or it will seem incredibly out-of-character for the Shining Knight they've made him in S2/3.
     
  14. Ayelbourne

    Ayelbourne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    You'll get him next season, don't worry. The casting call is already out.
    The showrunners have to juggle a budget so they cast characters when they actually need them. No one needed Mace this season.

    Which is fine by me. If given the choice between her killing a random ass guard in Harrenhall or one of the Frey soldiers bragging about creating Robbwind, I'd always choose the latter.
    It's just more poignant and satisfying while still being as horrifying as the Harrenhall kill.

    I get that you're really passionate about the books but that's no reason to degrade Unsullied viewers like that. Come on, man.

    Right, because they didn't need her.
     
  15. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And let's be honest, there's no way the audience would ever be able to take Daario's book description seriously and it would Dany look like an even bigger dummy for being attracted to him than in the books.

    Heck, the fact that they made TV Jorah Mormont way more handsome and charismatic is having folks wonder why Dany isn't remotely attracted to him.

    As for the dreams and flashbacks, some of them had to be cut out because the televised versions would've revealed too much compared to the books. Making a visual version of Ned's final moments with Lyanna would've made it too clear what happened to her, and Dany's visions in the House of the Undying would've been too obvious in the visual mediums to the audience.
     
  16. Shurik

    Shurik Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    All of this is because the showrunners should've condensed the material more, ending the season on Joffrey's death or even further. ASOS is the best book in the series, but the best and the most eventful part of it starts with the Red Wedding. Which means S4 will be beyond epic.
    It's been about 2.5 years since I last read ASOS, but what does Mace Tyrell actually do in the story, besides just being there and trying to look important? He's not smart like Grandma Tyrell, not colourful like Oberyn Martell and generally not that important in the grand scheme of things. I can't see him being more than guest role, mostly just sitting on the background.
    As Ayelborne pointed out, her killing someone who was responsible for the single most horrific thing she had ever seen in her life made much more sense than killing some random guy in Harrenhall.

    To be honest, I never was a fan of Arya in the books (or Starks in general, for that matter), but Maisie Williams being so great in her role and working so well with everyone she gets paired with made me like her TV version. Her being older than in the book also works better.
    The critical and ratings success of this show has nothing to do with tits. It is a well written and well done show based on good source material. It is more faithful to the source material than 99% of adaptations I've seen.

    For the more recent example - have you seen the World Without End mini-series, an adaptation of Ken Follet's novel about 14th century English town? Those who did the adaptation didn't even get the date of the Black Death plague right, that's how much they didn't care. None of characters even remotely resembled their book counterparts. The acting ranged from bland to extremely bad. It looked very cheap. But maybe I'm just spoiled by GoT and expect the same production values from every period show.
    What for? Why include a very minor character who will be needed in the late S4 at the earliest, when no one will remember who the hell she was? Or would you prefer her having invented scenes of brothel training and such for three whole seasons, just like Theon had in this one?
     
  17. Nagisa Furukawa

    Nagisa Furukawa Commander Red Shirt

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    Some of them, yes. Not using A SINGLE, NOT A SINGLE, NOT ONE vision from HotU was just insane. If you'd have told me before S2 aired, that *nothing* from the book's visions and images would be used in the show's version, I'd have said you don't give the showrunners near enough credit as adapters. As it, uh, was just like that, they should've just gotten rid of the whole damn scene if they weren't gonna use anything of use actually from it.
     
  18. superdeluxe

    superdeluxe Captain Captain

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  19. Anwar

    Anwar Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They did show us important things in the visions she saw this time around though:

    1) (Possibly) Snow on the Iron Throne which might spoil the entire series.

    2) Throne Room destroyed either by cold weather (White Walker invasion) or ash (from Dragon fire, her dragons attacking).

    3) Right after we see the ruined Throne, we see her at the Wall. Kind of making it clear there's some connection.

    4) We see a Targaryen child when one parent is not a Targaryen, and it doesn't have white hair. Another implication.
     
  20. Brendan Moody

    Brendan Moody Vice Admiral Admiral

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    People can strain to come up with interesting interpretations if they want, but it's pretty plain that the only thing in the producers' minds with the House of the Undying was achieving a vague eerie effect while using sets they already had and providing a fanservice cameo.